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+--- Forum: Zinfandel (The Real Red Stuff) (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-36.html)
+--- Thread: Zinfandel Origins (/thread-9269.html)
- Innkeeper - 03-24-2002
According to April 30, 02 edition of WS, Zinfandel came from Croatia afterall. For a long time the contest was about whether the Italian Primitivo or the Croatian Plavac Mali was the same as Zin. Then DNA testing showed that Zin and Primitivo were clones of the same grape and that Plavac Mali was a cousin of both. In fact it was found that Plavac Mali was a descendent of Zinfandel and a grape called Dobricic. Now they have found a sample of a little known grape called Crljenak (pronounced "tsirl-ye-nak")which testing has proved to be identical to Zinfandel.
- Bucko - 03-24-2002
Yeah, WS is always a month or more behind on the news. Carole Meredith came with it a while back. Interesting news on the origins of grapes.
- Thomas - 03-24-2002
I think that same issue, or one close by, gave a Best Buy to Palha Canas Vinho Tinto 2000, Portugal. We've been selling that wine for over a year--in front of the curve again--but now we shall have to drop it, in keeping with a tradition of eschewing wines that are rated and then soon overpriced, in that order.
- Bucko - 03-24-2002
There are a host of very nice, affordable Portugese reds. I don't know why they never seem to catch on with the American public. It requires some pushing by people in the know I guess.
- Drew - 03-25-2002
Saw this reply to a question posted on the WLDG and thought it interesting to this subject. She even supplied a link to a diagram.
http://www.lagiermeredith.com/Zinfandel/ZinHistory.gif
Here's the quick view for the entire thread.
http://www.wineloverspage.com/cgi-bin/sb/ts.cgi?fn=1&tid=28218&qv=1
Drew
---------------------------------------------
From: Carole Meredith (UC Davis) Email
Date: 24-Mar-2002 22:30
Subject: Explanation Thread ID: 49818
Message ID: 406971
Tom and Anders,
Over the last 5 years we (we being me, the people in my research group, and my Croatian collaborators) have found quite a few pieces of the Zinfandel puzzle. Based on our DNA studies, here is how the picture looks now:
1. Zinfandel, Primitivo, and Crljenak kasteljanski are synonyms for the same grape variety. The different names are used in the United States, Italy and Croatia, respectively. (Very little Crljenak kasteljanski can be found in Croatia today.)
2. Zinfandel and Plavac Mali are not the same variety. (Plavac Mali is considered the best red winegrape of the Dalmatian coast and is the grape used in Dingac and Postup wines.)
3. Zinfandel and another Dalmatian variety called Dobricic are the parents of Plavac Mali. This means that Zinfandel must be older than Plavac Mali, which is itself considered a very old variety.
4. We cannot prove that Zinfandel originated in Dalmatia because we have not found its parents. However, the large number of Dalmatian varieties that are closely related to Zinfandel is strong evidence that Zinfandel is an indigenous Dalmatian variety or at least that it has been there for many centuries.
5. Speculation on my part: Although thought to be very old, Plavac Mali may actually be a relatively young variety. The venerable red wine variety that has been grown on the Dalmatian Coast for centuries may originally have been Zinfandel. When phylloxera hit the Dalmatian vineyards, much of the Zinfandel may have died and been supplanted by one of its seedlings, Plavac Mali. The two varieties have a similar physical appearance and in that traditional agricultural environment in which precise variety names were unimportant, the transition may gone unnoticed.
We have not yet reported these findings in any scientific papers because they are quite recent. We expect to have something written up and submitted within the next few months. There have been some news stories, such as these:
Wine Spectator 23 January 2002
Sacramento Bee 30 January 2002
(The Decanter story is not completely accurate in that it refers to our having found the parent of Zinfandel, which is not true.)
Carole Meredith
Professor
Department of Viticulture and Enology
University of California, Davis
[This message has been edited by Drew (edited 03-25-2002).]
- Thomas - 03-25-2002
Great stuff, Drew. Thanks.
Now, about those 101 Dalmatian Zinfandels...
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-25-2002).]
- Innkeeper - 03-25-2002
One more (hopefully last) point; the WS article pointed out that Primitivo had been in Italy about the same amount of time that Zinfandel had been in California (150 180 years). Therefore the liklihood is that both countries got their vines from Croatia.
- Thomas - 03-25-2002
...150-180 years ago, that's between 1822 and 1852--hmmm.
The Spaniards brought the mission grape in the seventeenth century; it dominated Southwest and California winemaking for some time. German immigrants from Missouri got to California during the Gold Rush (1849), built the first successful commercial wine industry in LA County at Anaheim; Haraszty (sp) got out there after the German immigrants.
Leaves the question: how did zinfandel/primitivo grapes get from Croatia to California, when exactly and why?
- Innkeeper - 03-25-2002
They were in a box of cuttings he got from the ole country in 1852.
- zenda2 - 03-25-2002
Zin Kon Tiki?
- Botafogo - 03-25-2002
Foodie, re ratings, please join us in making a floor stack of the current Ciro and Ciro Riserva from Librandi which got 78 and 75 respectively and were dismissed as "an ancient style of winemaking" (as if that was a BAD thing) in the current Speculum. I was hoping for 73 and 71 as love selling sub 75 scoring wines when they are HUGE favorites with our clientele...
Roberto