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The australian flavour in europe - Printable Version

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- DrFlavour - 09-20-2000

Hi, I am an australian that has recently moved to Germany. There seems to be many cheap french and italian wines available but so far none have impressed at all. Am I simply experiencing bad/cheap wine or is it a style difference. What should I look for for a good full bodied wine in europe. For the moment I am sticking with chiantis, drinkable but nothing to write home about. Cheers DF


- winoweenie - 09-20-2000

Hi good Dr and welcome to the board. Seems strange that you can`t find any marvy Aussie bottles in Germany. As enterprising as your wine industry is , bet you can log onto their web-site and find a location to purchase your favorite Shiraz. Good luck, and know you`ll get some GOOD advice from some of the more intelligent members of our lil` board. winoweenie


- Innkeeper - 09-20-2000

In the south of France there is a river called the Rhone. Just paddle up it a couple of hundred klicks and you'll think you're home.


- hotwine - 09-20-2000

That's good advice from Innkeeper.
If you're a member of the armed forces, go to your nearest "Class VI" store; they'll have a good selection of Bordeaux and Burgundies, as well as those wonderful Rhones and Beaujolais. You would also be eligible to use similar facilities of the Allies. I especially enjoyed shopping at the French commissary at Kaiserslautern for wines, snails, cheeses and fresh breads.
If you're a civilian, I'd suggest you contact your consulate or embassy for suggestions on ways to link up with wine brokers and retailers. (By brokers, I mean people who make their living rounding up wines from across the continent on special order for people like you. Ask your friends and acquaintances for recommendations.)


- FullBodied - 09-20-2000

Here Here, Dr Flavour
Call me a wierdo, but I like to drink wine for the sake of drinking wine. Yeah I like to drink wine with food, but sometimes you just cann´t go past a good fullbodied wine, just to enjoy, ´cos it is wine. Not simply to accompany (and play second fiddle to) food. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]

I am no expert, but the australian wines often impress without food. However, I will give the Rhone another try (thankyou board), although I thought, they grew mostly shiraz grapes there, rather than a good solid CabSav. Thanks all, I am new here but love it already.

Really good wine should be able to stand alone, as should really good food. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
Cheers


- DrFlavour - 09-21-2000

Thanks all, Love the board

WW
We dont drink much other than Australian in Australia, it is either too expensive, or difficult to get, so I though while I am here, I should check out the european stuff, so far the best cheapest chards I can find is Californian, love that malalactic (spelling?) treatment.

Thanks IK Ill head up the Rhone for sure.
thanks again, DF


- doddles - 10-11-2000

I lived for about 10 years in Switzerland and found Australian wine fairly easy to come by, but obviously I wanted to try as much of the European wine as I could. My non expert opinions if you're after full-bodied reds:

Wine from the Bordeaux region of France, especially Medoc, Haut Medoc and St Emillon, can be beautiful, but also can be overpriced. Also, compared to Australian reds, this wine needs aging. Most of it needs 4-5 years before it drinks well, unless you like the sensation of tannins drying out your mouth.

Wine from the Rhone region of France is better priced and more easily drinkable young. I found wines from Gigondas to be very nice.

Also, although it has a reputation for being inconsistent, Spanish red wine can be beautiful and it is often very full.

Enjoy!


- mrdutton - 10-11-2000

Yo....................

Hold on for a second. Let that wine from Haut-Medoc and Saint Emillion age and then taste.

Long live the difference. If the wine is meant to be drunk young, then by all means drink it so. However, if it should be aged, then let it be aged.

When you pop the cork on the old stuff that is at its peak you'll find no comparison to that stuff you drank so young.

With age there is wisdom and with wisdom there is knowledge. Cliche, yes. Truth, yes, even more so......

If you want wine from OZ, then doggone it stay in OZ, or when you travel bring the stuff with you.

If you want to experience the rest of the world, then open up a bit and don't expect that the stuff you drink in OZ should even begin to taste the same as the stuff you drink elsewhere.

What the hell happened to terrior (and yes my spelling is awful).

However the bottom line is this: Wine in Europe is not supposed to taste like wine in OZ. They are certainly different places and they are apart by more miles than one can imagine. Since the grape is a product of its soil and the resultant wine is a product of the grape, why would you expect two so different areas to be similar?

[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 10-11-2000).]


- Thomas - 10-12-2000

Dutton said a mouthful--pun intended.

It drives me to distraction when us so-called wine people go through life with closed minds (or is that closed tastebuds?). Wine is as varied a subject as any I know; there are thousands of tastes to explore and thousands of reasons to enjoy them.

The same wine you like to share with friends and conversation could taste rather nasty if served to you as your boss explains why he has to "let you go."

Locking into one concept or one taste preference is like wearing the same suit for the rest of your life.


- ChefMax - 10-12-2000

Bravo, Foodie and MrDutton! Well said!


- doddles - 10-13-2000

OOps! I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that Bordeaux wines are bad because they need aging! I agree completely with what Mr Dutton said. Having had the chance to taste a few 10 year old Haute Medocs and St Emillons, I can say with certainty that they can be wonderful wines. And as he also said, quite unlike anything Australian (or elsewhere for that matter). I love the stuff. I was just trying to point out that it's difficult to reliably find cheap Bordeaux wine that is ready to drink now. By all means buy some now to drink later, or if you have the money, buy some old stuff to drink now. But if the original poster was looking for something good to drink now that won't cost a lot, you could do worse than to try some Spanish red or some Rhone red.

And then there's always the dozens of other French regions to sample as well :-)


- winoweenie - 10-14-2000

And don`t forget the Calif & Wash stuff. However , as usual I tink we`ve strayed. He`s an Aussie in Germany. IK and Hotsel-poo gave him the definative answer. Rhones! winoweenie


- tcarlsen - 10-14-2000

Reds:

Look for any reds from the Rhone region of France, such as Cotes du Rhone and Chateauneuf du Pape. 1998, in particualr, was a blockbuster year. If the Rhone Reds are too tough for you, hunt around for some good French reds from Burgundy or Bordeaux (especially from the Medoc).

Value whites:

You can't go wrong with Mouton Cadet Blanc. Mouton Cadet is the most served wine in the world.

There are great chablis from Burgundy and. See if you can find the Domaine de Couseurges sauvignon blanc from the Rhone region.

The Loire is famous for whites.

But my #1 tip: Enjoy the outstanding Rieslings from Germany. You are awash in world class German Rieslings. The ones from the Mosel-Saar-Ruwer region are the best.

Bottom line: Avoid the inconsistent quality of Italy and go with France and Germany.


- Drew - 10-14-2000

tcarlsen.....now you've done it! Better hope Roberto doesn't read what you wrote about his favorite wines!

Drew


- Thomas - 10-15-2000

Forget Roberto, I'll jump in--inconsistent quality of Italy! Obviously, tcarlsen has been spending money in all the wrong places... .


- FullBodied - 10-15-2000

Thanks board for the helpful tips( particularly Tcarlsen) but please give Dr Flavour a break!....and let´s get with the program....He is not saying that he wants to drink Oz wine....he is in europe and has an open mind. He and I need advice about interesting and good wine given a predilection for full bodied reds. I have indeed tried such interesting samples as Franconian whites of which the Franconians are very proud ...however I have yet to develop a taste for the stuff. Please keep the criticism to a minimum and keep your best advice coming ....cheers to the board


- Botafogo - 10-15-2000

The most consistently fullbodied and high alcohol reds in Europe come from Puglia in Southern Italy, that's why the Frenchies used them for centuries to make their sissy burgundies into something interesting (see pre-war notes from Michael Broadbent for a time when Burgs were "masculine" and Bordeaux was "feminine"). We have recently come across some wineries in Sicily who made their living for decades selling every drop of their 14-15% "vino nero" to famous Burgundy negociants for "color and body correction". Har, Har, Roberto


- Thomas - 10-16-2000

Roberto, another great mouthful.

Wine history is filled with those little tidbits that make a large difference.

Southern Italy, along with North Africa, have been (since 1,000 BC) a place for major European wine producers to go for "help." The big, bold, ripe body available from wines in those regions is an obvious benefit to normally thin, often unripe northern European products. The best northern producers have been able to balance the two extremes and to produce elegant wines, which did not make an impact until the early Middle Ages, after the fall of Rome and the rise of northern European merchant classes.

To say that Italy produces inconsistent quality wine is to speak volumes of "canned" propaganda. Every country produces inconsistently; that is what vintage dating is all about.

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 10-16-2000).]


- tcarlsen - 10-22-2000

You make some excellent points, and I need to restrict and clarify my previous comments.

If you are interested in drinking CHEAP, quality, value wines, then Australias wines are nearly the kings.

The reason for this is because the Australians love to drink wine, but they do not want to pay much. And the Australian wine industry has responded.

The Australians have developed a method of making quality wine at a good price. The key word is quality. "Australian style" has become associated with quality and value.

I just bought a couple bottles of Rosemount Grenache-Shiraz ($5.50 each on sale) and two bottles of Shiraz (1 Rosemount for $7.50 and 1 Jacobs Creek for $6.00.) A friend of mine stocked up on the Greg Norman Cab-Merlot ($11 a bottle.)

In fact, one of my favorite value wines, 1998 Domaine Cousersues Sauvignon Blanc ($6.99 on sale), is made by a Rhone estate that hired a couple of Australians to transform and manage the ancient winery. The result has been a good, consistent wine at a cheap price. Indead, this wine won the coveted silver award the French Department of Agriculture gives out (I forget the name). It's Australian style.

Now I know that some wine enthusiasts may be left cold by the thought of not drinking only world class wines that cost upwards of $20-$30 a bottle. But I am too stingy to pay that price for everyday wines. So, like the Australians, I look for value in everyday wines.

This whole thread got started when an Australian in Europe asked about good, quality wines at a cheap price (no surprise there):

"Hi, I am an australian that has recently moved to Germany. There seems to be many cheap french and italian wines available but so far none have impressed at all. Am I simply experiencing bad/cheap wine or is it a style difference."

Now if you are looking for quality in a cheap wine, then avoid Italy. Cheap Italian wines can be a rip-off when compared to what else you can get around the world for the same price. For my value dollar, I spend my money elsewhere, such as California.

There are many excellent Italian wines. If you want world class wines and are willing to pay a higher price, then there are some tremendous Italian wines. Just don't expect a good selection of pretty good wines for $6.99 a bottle.

France also has some quality issues, but these issues are offset by the enormous amount of good French wines. I think the Australians and the Americans have the best quality.

Germany does a decent job with quality, but the strong German Mark, until recently, has kept the good rieslings out of the value-minded American market. (Hyper-inflation helped lead to the rise of Hitler, so the Bundesbank likes to be aggressive and keep German interest rates and the Mark up there.) The weaker dollar last year helped fuel the recent interest in Rieslings.

[This message has been edited by tcarlsen (edited 10-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by tcarlsen (edited 10-22-2000).]


- mrdutton - 10-22-2000

I guess it all depends on where your are when you buy the wine.

The last time I was in France or in Italy (which was not recently by a long shot....), I got some darn decent wines for some darn decent prices (all at less than $10.00 per bottle).

Supply, demand and mark-up all have to play key roles here, I would think. A small producer of some very fine wine might not be able to get his wine out to the international market, simply because by the time it got to the shelves in outer-elsewhere, it would simply be too expensive. But, when he sells to the local taverna so they can have their table wine, the price is quite fair for the product delivered.

My example might be the overly simple one, but I am sure that it applies to the big picture somewhat.

And, again, I would never go to France expecting to get wines that taste the same as the wines I get from California or from Virginia, no matter the price.