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+--- Thread: Awsome Winemaker or War Criminal, You Decide! (/thread-8066.html)
- Garbo - 10-02-2000
Roberto-
Haven't tried said wines, but will take your word for it that they are the devil's tool. I'm curious to know, however, what everyone thinks of the "CalItalian" wines like Ca del Solo and Il Podere dell'Olivos -- California wines made with traditional Italian varietals. I happen to think they're groovy, and much preferable to chards, merlots and cabs. Maybe the pendulum is about to swing back the other way...except Italian wines will be made in California, and vice-versa...
- winepoppi - 10-02-2000
As a relatively new member I am finding this subject and the many postings very interesting. Over the last few years I have started to truly enjoy the various Italian wines, especially the Sangiovese blends, the so-called "super Tuscans". However, due to what I've learned in this forum, down the drain with all my '96 & '97 S-Ts(Sassicaias, Solaias, Tignanellos,etc.). My feeling is that blending just gives us more to chose from.
- jock - 10-02-2000
Wow. Heavy duty thread. Agree that too much internationalization has taken place. Especially, too many wines being "Parkerized".
The only thing I see as worse than all this Italian Merlot are the vast majority of California Sangiovese based wines. Almost all of them are pretty mediocre and some are downright bad.
- Botafogo - 10-02-2000
>> down the drain with all my '96 & '97
S-Ts(Sassicaias, Solaias, Tignanellos,etc.).<<
Poppi, a better stategy (even if you want to keep drinking those styles of wines) would be to SELL all the "blue chip" stuff to guys who HAVE to have them at any price and buy some of the neighboring wines made in the same style from the same varietals by THE SAME WINEMAKERS (the aforementioned Dr. Tachis, Atillo Pagli and Franco Bernabei) at half to two thirds the prices and then invest your "war crimes dividend" in some traditional wines for a point of reference.
And, just to further your cause of multi-culturalism, you know of course that "poppi, oohhhh, Poppiieeeee" is what Latina girls scream when they are about to .... uh .... ....."arrive" don't you??? Great handle, I couldn't resist!!!
Roberto
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-02-2000).]
- RAD - 10-02-2000
Great thread, though I'm not certain that I agree with the basic thesis that Italians are "Americanizing" via France, all Italian wine into merlot. I'm not in the industry, so perhaps I don't see it.
But I do find the notion of "original" and "source" philosophically disturbing, and analogous to the structuralism vs. post-structuralism rants that were all the rage when I was in grad school a few years back. Ideas such as "original" and "source" are easily deconstructed; change is the only constant.
The ancients recognized that wine was constantly changing; the Latin writer Columbella noted in the 1st century that farmers experimented with new varieties, some of them from neighboring Greece.
More recently, take chianti classico as an example: according to the Oxford Companion To Wine, Baron Bettino Ricasoli in 1872 recommended that sangiovese be the predominant grape in chianti, displacing canaiolo; however, it wasn't until the end of the century that this recommendation was widely implemented. The DOC regulation of 1967 codified things a bit more, noting that the white grapes trebbiano and malvasia were to comprise 10-30%. Finally, the DOCG regulations of 1984 stipulated that white varietals be a minimum of 2%, and permitted the addition of non-traditional cabernet sauvignon up to 10%. So-called purists can find solace in the fact that chianti classico can now be 100% sangiovese; but do these same purists know that 125 years ago, it was canaiolo, not sangiovese, that was the king of chianti?
It would seem, then, that Italy is doing its best to keep traditional vinification alive, as other DOCG designations would indicate. But is the preservation of indigenous varieties mutually exclusive from experimenting with new ones? Such a view, I believe, borders on the xenophobic.
Castello di Ama, I'm told, makes an oustanding merlot (Vigna L'Apparita), while at the same time producing (in my opinion) a wonderful chianti classico. Fattoria Le Pupille bottles a great cabernet (Saffredi), while at the same time producing a powerful Morellino di Scansano.
If we are to take this "keep it original" mandate to its logical conclusion, then we'd better uproot 99% of Napa Valley; after all, cabernet sauvignon and chardonnay belong in Bordeaux, not on the Left Coast (sorry winoweenie, no more Diamond Creek for you!). And that nice gewurztraminer that I picked up at Joseph Phelps best be destroyed, as it is clearly thousands of miles from its Alsatian roots, and as such is suspect.
Finally, for John and Jane Smith, sitting in a trattoria near the Ponte Vecchio sipping a glass of Vitiano--who's to say that's not Italy and all things Italian to THEM? I don't think that the Viettis and the Gajas and the Altesinos will go bankrupt as a result.
--RAD
[This message has been edited by RAD (edited 10-02-2000).]
- Botafogo - 10-02-2000
>>Finally, for John and Jane Smith, sitting in a trattoria near the Ponte Vecchio sipping a glass of Vitiano--who's to say that's not Italy and all things Italian to THEM?<<
A) I would suspect it would be hard to FIND a glass of Vitiano in the above setting as it is more of an export brand
and
B) As our store is immediately adjacent to a hotel favored by Euro Tourists, I talk to people everyday who are CERTAIN that Las Vegas and Universal City and Disneyland are America at its essence.......
doesn't make them right, Roberto
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-02-2000).]
- RAD - 10-03-2000
>>A) I would suspect it would be hard to FIND a glass of Vitiano in the above setting as it is more of an export brand<<
I was using Vitiano metaphorically to signify a wine indicative of the topic at hand (I try not to drink cheap Italian wine, so couldn't think of any off-hand [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img] ).
>>B) As our store is immediately adjacent to a hotel favored by Euro Tourists, I talk to people everyday who are CERTAIN that Las Vegas and Universal City and Disneyland are America at its essence.......
doesn't make them right, Roberto<<
Then it appears what we're ultimately talking about is the difference between good taste and bad. And as far as misplaced notions of the essence of what America is; well, just as I instinctively distrust notions of "source" and "origin", I also dislike the idea of "essence."
Disneyland may not be the essence of America; perhaps Las Vegas isn't either. What, then, IS the essence? The Rocky Mountains? A corn-fed heifer on the way to the slaughter in Iowa? A slice of apple pie? Or, enologically speaking, a glass of scuppernong wine from Virginia?
It's like the old Tootsie Pop commercial: "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? One? Two? CRACK! Three." How many wines must one drink to acheieve the essence of Italy? A nebbiolo or barolo from piemonte? A chianti from Toscana? An old amarone?
--RAD (a sophist who envisions one scenario of a perfect evening with a big glass of Sangiovese and a good argument; Dad always said I should have been a lawyer [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/rolleyes.gif[/img] )
[This message has been edited by RAD (edited 10-03-2000).]
- Botafogo - 10-03-2000
>>Then it appears what we're ultimately talking about is the difference between good
taste and bad.<<
No, it's the difference betwixt superficiallity and real substance. Would you argue with the fact that, even though Brittany Spears sells more records, Aretha Franklin or Chrissie Hynde have a lot more to say AND say it better?
When we are in Italy and people present us with their latest slicked up and nuetered Parker wannabee we sing a rousing chorus of George Clinton and Funkadelics' "We want da Funk, Give us da Funk" IN ITALIAN, brings down the house. I think my sense are so sharpened on this issue due to my lifelong involvement in music which has EXACTLY the same issues in spades.
Roberto
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-03-2000).]
- ddf68 - 10-03-2000
I agree with Botafogo here. Disneyland etc. is not a question of bad taste or good taste as much as it is a choice of an ersatz experience over an authentic one. The essence of America (broad generalization here) seems to be our relative willingness to accept the slickly marketed ersatz choice over the authentic. That's sad enough in itself. When the result is the elimination of the unique for the generic and the mass produced, it's disturbing.
ddf
- mrdutton - 10-03-2000
<<Or, enologically speaking, a glass of scuppernong wine from Virginia?>>
I know it doesn't make a sam-hill bit of difference to the topic at hand........
But please. Scuppernong is a NORTH CAROLINA thing, not a Virginia thing........
"Muscadines, known locally as scuppernongs, are the native grapes of North Carolina."
Please see:
http://www.agr.state.nc.us/markets/commodit/horticul/grape/typewine.htm#VITIS ROTUNDIFOLIA:
- winoweenie - 10-04-2000
I have to defend Wallaces` honor as he is out-of-town. Don`t put-down Scoppermong ,as he swears it`s there along wif` apple-pie. Also guys, I think it`s amazing that the Wine Regurgitator jes` arrive wif` its Tuscan issue. Not to beat a horses-patootie too much, Suckling in his article used the term " international " as the definative description to the wines on discussion here. Aint that a kick Bota-Baby!? winoweenie
- Bucko - 10-04-2000
Keep in mind that Wallace thinks that antifreeze goes well with armadillo..... he thinks that it is possum on the half-shell.
Bucko
- Thomas - 10-04-2000
After having met RAD face-to-face last night in NY City, I have to say that he is a true wine guy who does the unthinkable in America: he thinks! Love the reference to Columella. You know, while Rome was being overcome by big "corporate" wine entities, such as the one that killed off Falernum, Columella was trying to convince Roman farmers that the small vintner could make a lot of money--geez, does that sound like somewhere on earth today!
RAD, your argument has some merit, even to this "America lacks culture" guy. You especially make a good argument when you point out to those who may not know it, but America does have its home-grown wine grape varieties, and most wine drinkers do not drink them. So, what is the essence of American winemaking? Incidentally, according to the history books, the first wine produced commercially in Los Angeles County, by Germans from Herman Missouri, was Catawba. Essence of America?
By the same token, the essence of Italian or French winemaking certainly is not the California style of winemaking, which truly is beginning to get on my nerves.
Stalemate? Maybe, but I have a feeling that Roberto will not be so kind as I am.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 10-04-2000).]
- Botafogo - 10-04-2000
>>Love the reference to Columella. You know, while Rome was being overcome by big "corporate" wine entities, such as the one that killed off Falernum, Columella was trying to convince Roman farmers that the small vintner could make a lot of money--geez, does that sound like somewhere on earth today!<<
One of our heroes, Montepulciano d'Abruzzo God Eduardo Valentini, says he owns every book ever writtn in a European language on viticulture and oenology and "no one has improved on Columella". He may be right: Last night we poured a wine made in Calabria out of air dried Nurello and Noceto fermented in concrete tanks and aged for five years in giant unsanitary Chestnut casks at a cantina so retro they are in denial about being Italians (the bottles are labled "i Vini di Magna Grecia", "the wines of Greater Greece"!!!) and it was the hands down crowd favorite when tasted alongside a serious Barbaresco and a well regarded Super Tuscan.
Back to the future, Roberto
- winoweenie - 10-04-2000
Shame, Shame Buckerino, And how Highly Wallace speaks of you. He told me uyou were the only person he`d ever met who, with your impediment, could discerne the difference between ruby Cabernet and Cucumber dip. He said there`s lots to said for a leather-tongue. winoweenie
- RAD - 10-04-2000
Glad we're all having fun; I think this will be my final salvo in this vein--
For what it's worth, let me reiterate my original issue:
>>is the preservation of indigenous varieties mutually exclusive from experimenting with new ones?<<
I think not. As I stated in my first post, Italian producers can cater to an "international" or non-indigenous style while simultaneously producing wines representative of their own geographic DOCG classifications.
Roberto said:
>>it's the difference betwixt superficiallity and real substance. Would you argue with the fact that, even though Brittany Spears sells more records, Aretha Franklin or Chrissie Hynde have a lot more to say AND say it better?<<
Of course I wouldn't argue with that; I'll simply say again that superficiality and real substance aren't mutually exclusive. As I said before, change is the only constant. To continue with Roberto's music metaphor, this week it's teenage boy bands offering homogenous, watered-down versions of the barbershop quartet 80 years ago; last week it was Bed-Stuy rappers maligning real-deal, old-school R&B; before that it was Scott Joplin using all 88 keys to bring dishonor to the piano tradition of Chopin, Beethoven, and Mozart before him, and before you knew it, everyone was doing the Jitterbug and classical piano was as far from the popular consciousness as was Vienna by both rail and steamer from a backwash West Village bar.
Change is the only constant, and on top of that, people are fickle. If this cultural enological conspiracy ever does largely succeed in bringing most wine to an over-oaked second-rate Napa shadow of a magnifique premier cru Bordeaux, then that same conspiracy will then spawn a new huckster hell-bent on pumping the Next Big Thing, whatever that wine style may be--and yet another change will take place. And all the while, quality and originality will remain, even if they are temporarily overshadowed by the saccharine-sweet superficiality of the latest fad.
"Cito maturum, cito putridum" ("Quickly ripe, quickly rotten"). [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/tongue.gif[/img]
--RAD
And in the interest of thoroughness:
MrD, sorry if I my misguided latitude placed scuppernongs a few degrees north of where it should have been; I was merely trying to think of a southern state and wine. And on that note, I checked your URL, which suggests that scuppernongs and muscadines are the same thing. In my best winoweenie impersonation, t'ain't so. I don't know about the Latin taxonomy here, but growing up in GA, I ate enough of both each summer to choke a hog. Scuppernongs were always honey-bronze and about the diameter of a quarter, whereas muscadines were always purply-black and nickel-sized. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
Foodie: thanks for the props, and it was great meeting you last night as well (can't wait for that topic/thread to get started; and on that note, when is the first annual Wine Board Conclave, or has that already been started?)
[This message has been edited by RAD (edited 10-04-2000).]
- mrdutton - 10-05-2000
RAD - see my posting about Muscadine and Scuppernong in the New York/East Coast Wines Forum.
- winoweenie - 10-05-2000
Rad, Wallace made a posting some-whiles back and said the annual Boardies congregation , in his mind, would be best held next spring on Curmys` and Bobby Darrins birthday. He should be home from Calif today or tomorrow and maybe we can firm that sucker up. winoweenie
- Thomas - 10-05-2000
Roberto, the reason for that Greek reference is simple: most, if not all, southern Italian wines owe a large debt to Greeks who landed in about 1,000 BC, and to Carthaginians who traded with Greeks and who wrote one of the most important wine manuals in history (Mago) that the Romans stole as part of the spoils of PW1 (Punic War 1). Many of the grapes growing in the south of Italy are descendants of the illustrious Greek landing, and that famous 121 BC Opimian burst of Roman wine was, in fact, thanks to mostly Greek grapes and Carthaginian viticulture. Columella once commented that all Roman viticulture owed a debt to Carthage--he was Iberian and he was trained by Carthaginian (latter-day Phoenicians, really) grape growers.
As RAD or other historical types will surely agree, Rome's empire and culture owed a massive debt to Greece.
- Botafogo - 10-05-2000
Foodie, we have met, broken bread with and direct import the wines of the gentlemen in question and they are not kidding, they consider themselves Greeks (and they think the people living in Greece now are NOT the ones who built the Parthenon!).
Roberto