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+--- Thread: Ahhh Help (/thread-6705.html)
- fangi - 03-22-2002
Can anyone get me outta this pinot mess?
moore brothers (the temperature controlled wineshop in nj run by the former sommelier of le bec fin, not that that matters) wine shop has a 1984 domaine ampeau volnay i.e. pinot for 35 bucks.
do i get this?
adventurous decisions are no problem for me, but i'm having a little wine tasting this sunday, theme being "red wines that pair well with many foods" this wine could be a weird fun addition or it could be completely lame.
wines i'm definitely including:
1. cabernet franc from local chaddsford winery. red bell pepper on the nose, light, spicy and clean refreshing finish.
2. 2000 domaine gasnier chinon. why not have a french counterpart, right?
3. a cru beaujolais, moulin-a-vent or fleurie
i want to serve a pinot from oregon and one from france, but my budget isn't huge and i want something that's good to drink now. i could get a 1999 chehalem ridgecrest. But it's 42 bucks. (i'm considering it after reading descriptions of fans in the archives)
I also saw a foris vineyards pinot for 18 bucks. I've had their gewurtztraminer it was pretty good...but that isn't influencing my decision either way for getting their pinot.
other light-drink-nows i'm going to pick up are a barbera (don't have a producer yet) and perhaps a sangiovese (in one of its many incarnations)
I shouldn't get the 1984 should i?
Although, even if '84 was a bad year, an aged, well-kept wine could be interesting? am i outta my mind?
thanks everyone,
brett
- wondersofwine - 03-22-2002
I don't know about the '84 but so many '99 red burgundies are extremely attractive right now (and will probably age well also). I would go for a village '99 such as a Chambolle-Musigny, Volnay, or Gevrey-Chambertin. The Roumier Chambolle-Musigny is getting good reviews if you can find it and is in the same price range as the Volnay you mentioned.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-22-2002
My instinct would tell me to steer clear, unless your wine merchant can personally, absolutely "guarantee" that the Volnay he has is an exception to the rule. The rule being that Volnays are usually drunk fairly youthful (less than 10 years old).
I, myself, have tasted exceptions -- red Burgundy can be that way -- but why take a chance?
Chehalem, by the way, makes a deeper, more concentrated and "serious" style of Pinot Noir than Foris, although for your purposes (exploring food-versatile wines) the soft and fruity Foris would probably do just fine. In fact, the Foris is more of a flexible, red-wine-with-fish candidate than Chehalem, in spite of the Chehalem's vaunted style (which I love, by the way, but with hearty stews and game birds).
I know you had your mind set on a French Pinot Noir. But if the budget is tight, why not choose a California Pinot to compare with the Oregon? Always an interesting contrast.
Fun concept you have going there!
- Randy Caparoso - 03-22-2002
Oh, and if it's a choice between Barbera and Sangiovese, I would choose Sangiovese since to me it's a little more versatile (great with fish and meats) since it has a zesty acidity, but not the extreme, puckery sharpness that tends to relegate Barbera to olive oil/vinegar/tomato/garlic oriented foods.
- fangi - 03-22-2002
Okay, so here's-a-one big reply for all 3 posts.
RE:1984 Pinot
Supposedly it could still use some aging, says merchant, but drinks nicely now. How's that to confuse things more?
RE: The Foris Pinot
Lighter and fruiter IS more what i'm looking for. I think i will get it. Overall, though i'd like to try the 99 ridgecrest soooo badly, it doesn't suit the theme of light, fruity, acidic, accessible, food-friendly wines as well as the foris.
So, my mind is made up on that one. Thanks Muchly!
RE: French Pinot General
I think i'll keep looking around a bit more. I don't trust the 1984, but i'll inquire within when i get to the store tonight. If not i may look for a '99 (villages if there be). Yes, my heart is truly set on french burgundy but if i don't find the right thing i'll give in i suppose. Living in PA can be such a big fat pain!
RE: Barbera vs. Sangiovese
I'm leaning towards barbera for two reasons. the first is that it comes cheaper than most nice chiantis i find, though it's not always the case. Also, because i thought it would go with a lovely vinegary bruchetta a la garlic and fresh basil. I'm also afraid of rooting around for a nice vino nobile di montepulciano, spending 20 bucks and having it be a dog. (that happened to me once) Maybe i'll look for a brunello? We'll see.
Thanks Soooooo Much Everyone. I'll leave another post after i shop.
cheers!
ps. i'm serving a cremant d'alsace as an aperitif. Domaine barnes bucher. I hope it's as special as i imagine it will be, cause it's the only one i've found so far in these parts. (It will be my first one ever)
- Drew - 03-22-2002
Welcome back Randy...long time no hear.
Drew
- winoweenie - 03-22-2002
Ah yes Drew.... 'Tis a genuine to have the expertise of the Randy-Dandy back. Welcome back 'ole chap... It has been lonely. WW
- Randy Caparoso - 03-24-2002
Thanks for the welcome-back-committee! I always loved the Wineboard, but my life has gone through incredible upheavals this past year. But I've still been writing (check out either www.wineloverspage.com/randysworld or www.novusvinum.com).
Getting back to some of the points...
First, the '84 Volnay: Of course, the wine merchant says "it's good now, but could use a few years." It could be 50 years old, and a wine merchant would say that. How many merchants would say that "it's too old, and so I don't recommend that you buy it?" That would be a very lonely club.
Barbera: Yeah, it's great with anything dowsed with balsamic vinegar to balance the acid, and fatty meats certainly help absorb the little bit of tannin most of the producers have been beefing up their Barberas with lately.
Happened to have chatted with Harry Peterson-Nedry, owner/winemaker of Chehalem, recently. He is really high on his '99s. It's a serious vintage for him -- deep, full structured, tremendous fruit. In fact, unlike a lot of other Oregon producers, his '99s are bigger than his '98s. So if you did go ahead and try it, I'm sure it was a real treat. If you see his "Rion Reserve," by the way, it's even better.
Couldn't resist throwing in those last few comments...
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 03-24-2002).]
- Innkeeper - 03-24-2002
The nicest thing about getting you back again for awhile Randy is that I learned the acid with acid mantra from you back a couple of years ago, and have been pummeled about the neck and theighs in recent months for this advocacy.
- Thomas - 03-24-2002
IK, I waited for you to post that...
incidentally, I like the good balsamics that offer sweetness too; they do nicely with Barbera as well as with Riesling; or is it the other way 'round?
Just for argument's sake, do you (or anyone else) think that all acidity in wine is alike?
- Innkeeper - 03-24-2002
Well, there's tartaric acid, the most commonly found acid from the grape. Malic acid also comes from the grape. Acetic acid occurs during fermentation. Of course lactic acid results from maloactic fermentation. In warmer climates various food based acids are dumped into wines that ripen too quickly for acid to develop. Southern Italy, Northern Chile, and similiar places do this where legal, and someplaces illegally.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-24-2002
It's true that warm climate wines are often augmented with added acidity. But I'd bet any money that we've all enjoyed lots of California and Australian wines, blissfully unaware of their acidication. Just as we've enjoyed tons of French and German wines, blissfully unaware of the sugar added to them before AND after fermentation.
Be as it may, I'm sorry to hear about anyone's feet getting roasted over the fire because of me. But let me throw in my two cents on the subject of acidity, with and without food...
I would think that the actual effect of acidity -- i.e. how the palate perceives it -- varies from varietal to varietal, country to country, wine to wine, vintage to vintage, etc. The best we can all do is speak in generalities -- like, Barbera is more acidic than Sangiovese, which is more acidic than Pinot Noir, which is more acidic than Merlot, etc.
Acidity -- like tannin, alcohol, sugar, and other major taste elements -- is also a relative perception. It can be altered by a dish, an individual's personal taste, the time of day, and a host of other factors. But in my 25 years of watching people consume wine in restaurants, I've found that what most people don't like are wines that taste too tart, or too bitter, or too sweet, etc. Hence, I always base my generalities on how best to balance things out for the largest percentage of people.
Finally, I hope no one thinks that I believe only wines with good acidity are good with food. California Chardonnays and Cabernets, for instance, are relatively low in acidity, but obviously are perfectly wonderful with a host of different dishes. In fact, dishes that would make more acidic varietals (like Sauvignon Blanc and Barbera) taste terrible. There's a good match for all good wines.
Acidity is important, but far from the only factor in sensible food/wine matching. If anything, the most important factor for all wines, as it is for all dishes, is a sense of balance. Because poorly balanced wines, like unbalanced dishes, are difficult to enjoy with anything.
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 03-24-2002).]
- vinman - 03-24-2002
Well, I need to thank Randy 'cuz a few weeks ago he turned me to the "Rion Reserve", and the wine is a beautiful expression of Oregon fruit, balanced against acidity, and healthy tannins. All time favorite, and has yet to age...
- Cole - 03-25-2002
I agree with Mr. Caporoso's view of the Chehalems. After having blindly tasted 99 different Oregon 1999 Pinot noirs for our pub, including everything from Duck Pond to Beaux Freres, Harry's '99 Rion Reserve was our pick of the vintage--it is the best Chehalem yet (and they make very nice wines on average), and narrowly I thought it the best of 1999. The other 99s that came in at the top included Beaux Freres, Penner-Ash, and Cristom's Jessie Vineyard
- Thomas - 03-25-2002
...that Cristom is often a winner wine.
Re, acidity, I have a theory of relativity: its strength and its importance is relative to other components and essences in each individual wine. It is diffiuclt to generalize such a theory, but I agree with Randy--we must generalize here.
Randy, I have a friend who is a California-trained winemaker. He came East to make wine and began to complain that we are allowed to add sugar in NY State. "That is disgusting and it is cheating too," he would say. When questioned about the addition of tartaric acid in California he would say, "that is a natural acid and all we do is add it back." I suppose acidity is also relative to perspective!!!
Incidentally, acidity is not truly a "taste" it is a sensation. Taste is what happens when your nose meets your brain to register what it is in your mouth; the tongue has precious little to say about it except that it is hot, cold, puckerish, et al.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-25-2002
Oh, now you're being picky... I agree with you about "sensation," of course, but I'm just using the common vernacular. Everyone and their mother talks about the four "tastes" -- sweet, sour, salty and bitter (the Japanese and others add the "fifth" taste called umami). Tomato, tomahto, Syrah, Shiraz...
- vinman - 03-25-2002
I have a manageable obsession for Pinot Noir. My wife considers this passion the beginning stage of dementia praecox! In any event what you'all have said regarding Cristom, Beaux Feres, Chehalem, et. al. Makes me feel that the sickness is not so bad. For pure Pinot power though, it's still Broadley Vineyards 1994 Claudia's Choice! Thanks!