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+--- Thread: seeking clarification on aged bordeaux question (/thread-5981.html)
- newsguy - 01-21-2004
i started thinking about the idea of grapes being picked before fully ripening resulting in the green pepper taste.
is this something that only becomes apparent as the wine ages, the green pepper taste for this reason?
i ask because i recall WS gave the 96 ch. cantemerle a 90-plus score, and i can't imagine that would have been the case of green pepper was the overpowering flavor in the wine.
just trying to understand this better...
- winoweenie - 01-21-2004
News-babe the reason that the grapes are picked in Bordeaux at less than maximum ripeness is that the Chateaus' wont make the gamble of letting the fruit stay on the vines till maximum ripeness and betting the fall rains wont come and wash the crop down the terlit. A good vintage is better than a poor one. WW
- Thomas - 01-22-2004
Generally, green pepper will show up right away. And it isn't only because grapes are picked too soon; it can be there as the result of a cool growing season that does not allow for full ripeness.
- newsguy - 01-22-2004
thank u gentlemen.
so do u think that this green pepper thing could have been apparent back when WS tasted the wine yet it still got this high score? i'm not alone in finding this overpowering green pepper taste as lousy, am i?
- Jorog - 01-23-2004
My recollection is that '96 was a left bank=bad, right bank=good year. Merlot on the right bank harvested before rain which diluted the left bank cabernet, usually picked later. May be Talbot (St Julien) avoided the rains but not the unripe quality?
- Thomas - 01-23-2004
newsguy, not to be hard on them, but you are placing too much value on WS opinions...
If you look at Jancis Robinson's good wine encyclopedia (Oxford) you will likely read that one of the expected characteristics from the Cabernet crowd is green pepper; even in wine produced from reasonably ripe grapes it can be detected by an astute (if that's the word) nose. Perhaps, you have an astute nose and the guys at WS who reported on the wine either do not, or had other reasons not to mention the vegetative quality.
- Tastevin - 01-25-2004
Hello Newsguy,
Sorry to see you have had some disappointments due to excessive Bell pepper aroma in red Bordeaux wines. It may be your olfactory system is particularly sensitive to this particular aroma and you'll never find a C. S. to suit you 100%. I do hope you will keep trying, otherwise you will miss out on the most wonderful wines. May I respectfully suggest, that you do some homework next time before laying out your hard earned dollars on whichever Classified red Bordeaux it is that takes your fancy. Don’t buy on a whim. Over here there is invariably a member of a reputable wine shop’s staff who can enlighten one about a particular wine; I am sure that is also the case in the States. Failing that, enquire if the shop has some relevant tasting notes in print; a good taster will usually make some comment about ripeness, and always about aroma.Of course, don't forget this Board. What you will be particularly trying to ascertain is the level of ripeness of the Cabernet Sauvignon grapes at harvest time at that particular property. I should add here that although ripeness is a major factor in the production of methoxypyrazines in the Cabernet Sauvignon grape, grape development, climate and other viticulture conditions can affect levels.
Methoxyprazines and Bell pepper aroma? Well, if I’ve remembered my wine chemistry correctly, it goes like this -
Bell pepper aroma is associated with Methox………., which are naturally occurring grape-derived flavour components and are grape-variety specific. Although Methox….. are in extremely low levels in Cabernet Sauvignon and Sauvignon Blanc grapes and wine, they give the distinctive aromas - ‘Bell pepper, herbaceous, earthy, grassy, vegetative’ - associated with those two grape varieties. Our ability to ‘smell’ the tiny amounts of Methox………………….. enables us to distinguish C. S. and S. B. from the other grape varieties.
Harvesting late influences the aroma intensity of Methox………..in the wine, levels drop rapidly as grapes ripen. Aroma levels can be adjusted by blending if a chateau has grapes available that were picked at different levels of ripeness.
So Newsguy we’re stuck with it to a higher or lesser degree (perhaps ‘stuck’ isn’t the correct word - I like just a touch of Bell pepper aroma). Levels vary from wine to wine, day to day, and person to person. Try decanting.
The clarets from St. Emilion are Merlot dominated, you might like to give those a try. Buy Grand Cru St. Emilions only, but be warned, if you find a chateau whose style you particularly like, always check that the label bears the words ‘Grand Cru’. Why? Well that’s another story.
Incidentally, do you smoke? Methox…….. is an additive in cigarettes.
[img]http://wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img] T.
- winoweenie - 01-25-2004
A very informative post Tasty. Sounds likw you've done some lenghty studies in the chemical field. I , like you, enjoy the bell pepper or herbacious flavor profile in my Cabs and Bordeauxs as long as it is in the background. I didn't mean to imply that early picking was the only reason for this flavor component to rear its' ugly snout but that because of the unpreditability of the weather in Bordeaux in October the estates will pick early if the threat of rains loom on the immediate future. WW
- Tastevin - 01-25-2004
Hello Ww.
I didn't think you were implying that early picking was the only reason for ..........
Keep popping corks [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img] T.
- Thomas - 01-25-2004
Geez ww, you must have missed my earlier post about cool growing conditions being a factor--the eyes is the third thing to go...
- newsguy - 01-26-2004
thanks all, for the information. i am here to learn and to share what i learn...
... and what i learned on the 87 talbot and 96 cantemerle, is they both smell like a big green pepper! [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
as many of you know, i tend to prefer cali (and even aussie) cabs to bordeauxs (at least the ones i can afford), but of the maybe 50 or so bordeauxs i've tried in the past 5 years, only these two to my nose and palate were dominated and i mean DOMINATED by green pepper. hope this percentage holds out.
[This message has been edited by newsguy (edited 01-26-2004).]