WineBoard
What the !@#$%^&*!? has happened to California Chardonnay? (A rant) - Printable Version

+- WineBoard (https://www.wines.com/wineboard)
+-- Forum: TASTING NOTES & WINE SPECIFIC FORUMS (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-200.html)
+--- Forum: Chardonnay/White Burgundy/Pinot Blanc/Melon (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-21.html)
+--- Thread: What the !@#$%^&*!? has happened to California Chardonnay? (A rant) (/thread-5546.html)

Pages: 1 2


- Thomas - 08-07-1999

Let's agree on this: some like it, some do not.

Maybe 10,000 people like flabby, buttery, woody wine that tastes unlike Chardonnay fruit and more like cheese. Can't argue with them if they pay Randy's bills.

Me, I like the simple way most Italians approach food and wine: let the inherent qualities come through, do not mask or obliterate them. Give me balanced wines that have not had their acid completely stripped, their fruit changed into dairy and their body beat up by wood.

Thanks for the food and Chardonnay suggestions, Randy, but I can think of many other ways to enjoy wine with most of those foods without having to drink wood.


- n144mann - 08-07-1999

Well, I just have to put in my two cents worth here....my husband and I are opposites on this issue....actually most issues but that is beside the point....we have decided that the only way to solve the problem is to each drink what we like and leave it at that. Simple, safe, divorce free...problem solved. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] IF everyone could do this...ie let everyone else drink what they want and like...wine snobbery would be dead, and wine world would be a lot more enjoyable for everyone, especially a timid newcomer

just my opinion
Nancy.


- n144mann - 08-07-1999

of course....it would make for a really boring thread.....<grin>
ding ding ding....next round???

NANCY


- Randy Caparoso - 08-07-1999

Your point touching upon Italian wine was well taken, foodie. Confession time: the last time I visited Tuscany (three years ago), I vividly remember tasting batteries of "Super Tuscanized" Sangiovese based wines aged in fairly new French oak, and thinking, "What a shame." I love the pure taste of Sangiovese -- the smoky, woodsy cherry aromas with brown spice nuances, and soft, pliable, yet gently acidic, lively flavors -- and it definitely seemed to me that a lot of it got lost in amongst the oak regimes. Subtlety and delicacy sacrificed for complexity and depth. Oh, well.

But even more telling is the relationship between food and wine. In a sense, classical French cooking (not to be confused with country cooking) is far more complex; cooking done in parts, and ending up with multiplicity of sauces. In this context, multi-layered French wine certainly makes a lot of sense.

The ambitions of more worldly Italians to produce wine on that level, and to go with classically configured (i.e. French and/or internationally influenced) foods, is certainly understandable. More power to them.

Traditional Italian cooking -- complex in its own way, as it represents the accumulation of centuries of thought and refinement -- is focused on more purity of the ingredients. The soft, winey taste of olive oil, the piercing oil of the rosemary twig, the pungent earthiness of porcini, the tender texture of taglierini... I think Tuscan bread epitomizes the tradition best -- saltless, virtually tasteless, its appeal is based on more of a feel than an actual substance. It is a lot, while being very little.

So it is with the more traditional style of Italian wines -- purity of fruit, a little of the terroir, high acid, low acid, heavy alcohol, almost no alcohol... in all their variations, varieties allowed to express themselves as they will naturally, with winemaking focused on the ability to minimize.

But one thing about Italians -- they are just as tolerant of change and evolution as they are of tradition. Like in those television commercials, the little signora on the cobblestoned street is powering her hand crafted business on the internet. Hence, there is much pride in the high flying innovations by Antinori as in the determined traditions of Ruffino. Outsiders who are not so dispensed towards open-mindedness are bound for continuous rude awakenings. You go to a rustic pocket like Carmignano, and you find that they have been blending Cabernet Sauvignon with their Sangiovese for nearly 100 years. It's high fashion woven from the purest fabrics, with old fashioned, painstaking artistry.

I'm digressing a bit (okay, a lot), but my point remains the same: Both tradition and innovation have their place, but when you take a close look at both you find that they are really one and the same. More often than not, the tradition you see has evolved from innovation, or is at least bolstered by the willingness to accept changes that are taken place all around it. It's the same for Italy as for any other place in the world.


- Thomas - 08-10-1999

Good digressing Randy. I suppose you could say I am in the traditional Italian camp.

This is a good subject for a Rant forum: why do so many people bypass the simple, yet wonderful, pleasures of fresh, inherent food qualities and create complexity and nuances? Is it something to talk about? Is it a display of savvy or "class?" Is it dead senses that need to be slapped hard to awaken?

The Starbucks syndrome: not just a good cappuccino or espresso but a small, medium, large extra latte with double cream, cocoa and small biscotti stuck on the side of the paper cup in which it all comes and in which the taste is obliterated anyway.

Shall I move this to the Rant?


- Jason - 08-11-1999

This is a good point. I wish there were more wines that just let the grapes and the land show through. Less is definately more. I find myself drinking more and more Italian wines. The Veneto is doing some great stuff.


- Randy Caparoso - 08-12-1999

But I hate to throw in another monkeywrench, gentlemen, because the Italians are now also producing lots of Chardonnay -- and blissfully well oaked at that.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms, though. I'm just leading into the fact that my favorite Chardonnay type is Antinori's "Cervaro della Sala," which is blended with up to 30% Grechetto. This indigenous varietal is highly underrated; making zesty, citrusy, high extract wine of great presence and liveliness (when bottled on its own), and which turns the Cevaro into something truly unique. I'm citing this wine because I think that it is is a tribute to the originality, and strong sense of "place," with which many Italians apply their craft -- even when dealing with internationally standardized products such as Chardonnay.


- Thomas - 08-12-1999

Randy, there still are more Italian wines in the fresh, "natural" style than there are not, and the ones that are not are normally over-priced anyway.

The Antinori you refer to is a fine wine; tasted it at an Italian tasting a little while ago, but cannot find it anywhere in my 'hood.

Jason, in my opinion, the Italians are the place to shop.


- Thomas - 08-12-1999

I should say I am partial to Friuli-Venezie-Guglia and Puglia these days.


- Bucko - 08-12-1999

You guys/gals lose me when you start clucking Eyetalian. I find so many of them to be acid water - yuck! Loire Valley is getting my bucks -- real fruit, nice acidity, a pleasant diversion.

Bucko


- Thomas - 08-13-1999

Bucko, stop buying the cheap Italian stuff...

Look for Pinot Grigio, Tocai Friuliano, Sauvignon Blanc, Schioppetino, Cabernet Franc, Refosco from Friuli (preferably Collio). And Salice Salentino (Puglia) are not acidic water.

The Loire is nice too.


- Van The Man - 08-15-1999

Wow!

Great debate. Just sorry I'm getting in on it a bit late.....

Bucko, I agree with you, California Chardonnay is, pardon me Randy C., boring, over vinified, over priced, over oaked, over flabbed, gawd-awful stuff that is better left to the people who have forgotten that wine is food and wine is made first and foremost to be drunk with food.

Last weekend, I had the chance to taste through about 40 Chadonnays from all over the globe. In the warmer climates like California and Oz, the wines are flabby and just too overdone....generally.

I tasted 3 New England wines, half dozen from the Finger Lakes and half dozen from Long Island and these wines are MUCH more interestiand and ABSOLUTELY a much better match with food, especially the nice shellfish (like lobster) and white flakey fish like we have here in the Northeast.

Randy C., I really disagree with the "oak makes the wine more interesting" thing. Oak should, at most, compliment the range of the grape. I still want to taste the terroir and with the typical (not all but most) California Chadonnay, the prorfile is disgustingly the same, time and time again: flabby fruit, heavy oak with moderate to heavy toast with not one iota of delicacy. It comes out of the glass, grabs yoiu and tries to take the flavors away from a meal.

So, I just say no to the stuff. Let the Wine Spectator continue to sell it with 90+ point scores and let the public who doesn't fully understand the wonderful possiblities of matching food with wine continue overpaying for this stuff by the truck load.

I'm with you Bucko, I don't buy it for my cellar and I likely would drink a Budweiser before I'd order it for myself at a restaurant......

That being said, there are two wine clubs I belong to and I get a few bottles every year just to confirm everything I said above.

Randy C., one other thing.....

You're right, the ML, the barrels, the everything are all traditional Burgundian approaches. But keep this in mind: they have the natural acids and lots of malic acid in their grapes that warmer climates don't have. That's why these things taste like a pina collada or kool-aid punch as opposed to wine. ;-)


- Randy Caparoso - 08-15-1999

Okay, Van, but now let's bring up the "fairness" issue. I cannot disagree with you that the vast majority of California Chardonnays are simply not that good, expecially since that also happens to be my genuine opinion. I, too, tend to find them to be somewhat flabby and often overoaked; if not sharp or underoaked, or just plain boring. But isn't wine quality a rather relative definition in virtually all cases? To expect 85% of all California Chardonnays to be world beaters is simply unrealistic! To what wines are you comparing these less successful Chardonnays? To the silken, concentrated and refined '97 Domaine Leflaive Chevalier-Montrachet? To the big, smoky, but tautly wound, perfectly balanced '97 Stag's Leap Wine Cellars Napa Valley Chardonnay? (I'm using real examples here). Come on, come on, come on, come on! You simply cannot knock, say, the rather weak, feeble '97 Louis Latour Puligny-Montrachet simply because it doesn't come up to the standards of the huge, luscious, elegant, multi-faceted '97 Vincent Girardin Batard-Montrachet (more real examples). Just as it's wrong to expect a '97 Fetzer "Sundial" to outchard a '97 Stag's! Once you start doing that, you end up making these kind of blanket statements -- like, California Chard is over oaked, or white Burgundy is too thin and acidic. There's simply no logic to that.

I believe my original point holds true because I am merely stating the standards set by the highest levels of the grape -- which is that barrel fermentation in toasty French barrels brings out absolutely the best that the grape is capable of giving. With the exception of places like Chablis (or similar cold regions), this is what Chardonnay is all about, be it in the Cote de Beaune, California, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, or anywhere else where decent stuff has been made. But while the great white Burgundies may be richly oaked, it's still ludicrous to expect great quality and food-worthiness in every white Burgundy you find. You know darned well that most of what you get from even the Beaune's hallowed slopes is downright dull and unbalanced -- and even great tasting food certainly doesn't improve upon on that!

Going to Santa Barbara, if you will, Au Bon Climat uses absolutely the finest, richest, heaviest toasted barrels they can lay their hands on. Are you going to tell me that their Chards are "overoaked," and that they shouldn't be doing that? Like, right. As if I'm going to offer such advisory to ABC's Jim Clendenen, or to Leflaive's Pierre Morey; or for that matter, a Philip Shaw from Rosemount, a George Bursick from Ferrari-Carano, a Francois Jobard, a Mike Grgich or David Ramey. Obviously, these guys are very talented, but when you look at them you realize that although they are working under different circumstances -- cold climate, warm climate, clay soil, chalky soil, high malic acid, low malic acid, etc. -- they all somehow manage to turn out impressive stuff. But just because other vintners around them are not doing as good doesn't mean that there is something inherently wrong with the methodolgy. It just means that some are better than others, as you would expect in all high quality wine regions!

So please -- let's be fair about this when making such pronouncements.


- Randy Caparoso - 08-15-1999

One more thing: Although I've already made my case that heavily oaked Chardonnay can be ideal within many food contexts, try to remember what Alexander Dumas said about drinking Montrachet, Chardonnay's sacred home: it should be drunk on one's knees, with one's hat off. In other words -- in certain circumstances, who gives a damn about food matching!


- Van The Man - 08-15-1999

Randy -

You bring up a lot of good points. And I must admit one thing, I'm truly not qualified to make comparative statements because I just don't care for the style of California Chardonnay in general. I do like Lewis Reserve, and I like a couple of Chards from the Russian River Valley, but outside of that, I paint them all with the same brush: They taste the same, there is no terroir and I hate the style.....in short, you raise a good point about fairness.

I should also point out that because of my experiences, which are vastly negative, with regards to the style, I simply don't buy and drink the stuff. And that frees up a lot of dough for other things I like I s'pose. Give me a Westport Rivers or a Sakonnet or a Lenz Chardonnay every day of my life over one of these.....even the "finer" ones. The cool, crisp, delicate flavors from a New England Chardonnay go AWESOME with our local seafood where as the huge, bold, reach out and grab you, flabby, over vinified California kool-aid doesn't. <shrug :-)>

Truth be known, 'cept for a couple of places in the Golden State, I'm just not sold on the grape as "well suited" for California.

Now, I'll say once again, I don't have anywhere near the expereince you have with these wines 'cause I just don't buy them....so I really should be listening as opposed to commenting. <g>

But, what experiences I've had are by and large not something to repeat for me.

So you bring up a good point. But for the life of me, I just don't care for the style....


- Randy Caparoso - 08-15-1999

Yeah, Van, but now you're humbling me because I have zilch experience with the New England styles you are talking about. Love to try them someday, though.