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+--- Thread: And the winner is............. (/thread-20255.html)
- Botafogo - 12-03-2000
Foodi, since you are just about to open I am glad you are starting to see that the jerk who walks in flashing money with the "top ten" list in one hand and Parker in the other is NOT your customer, he expects YOU to be a service bureau for the rags. His secretary / daughter / wife who comes in with Gourmet magazine wanting to know what to serve with that interesting terrine of rabbit IS your customer and will pay your rent if you treat her right, good luck on the new store!
Roberto
- Drew - 12-03-2000
"...the rest is status seeking, and bears little relationship to wine consumption."
I don't agree, Foodie. No question what the bread and butter wines are and that 99% of my money is spent on those. Even if you could afford to drink the "big boys" on a daily basis....who would want to? What would you drink for special occassions, and I'm not suggesting that all "big boys" are spectacular wines so let's not start another thread. Wine Spectator is just another tool that I use to help determine if I want to spend some money on a particular wine. Some of my other tools are wine shop owners and friends recs.,this board's recs., Parker's ratings, Wine Enthusiast, Brad Harrington's notes, Bucko's and Randy's notes....even WW notes. I don't agree with everything that WS prints and am not controlled by their rating system BUT, I don't think they're as big a monster as has been suggested either.
Drew
- Drew - 12-03-2000
...and Botafogo if a person walks in your place with money and a Spectator list and wants a bottle of Solaia do you call him a jerk and throw him out? I would think if you did you'd be out of business in a heartbeat. People visit stores with top this and top that rating lists for many reasons and to catagorize them as jerks well....misguided, unknowledgeable, on a mission, who knows? Jerks are the people who adamantly tell you no wine is worth drinking except the ones on the list!
Drew
- winoweenie - 12-03-2000
Eloquently stated Drew. As a consumer I`ve learned long-ago the ultimate buying decision is made by my palate. I`ll buy a bottle or so on a reccomendation, but if`n I don`t like that sucker it never shares space in my cellar with the wines I know and love. BV Reserve or Rutherford has NEVER been overlooked in a vintage, nor Diamond Creek, Phelps, Montelena, Caymus, Araujo, Heitz, Mondavi Mayacamus,Stags Leap, nor Duckhorn regardless of what Laube is pimping at the moment or what new producer Heidi has signed on with. I know these will always be near or at the top of any wines made in Napa and the newcomers have had one heck of a time gettin` shelf space. So Drew I commend you on doin` your thing. Boto would have us drinkin` nothin but his Italians, Foodie only wines that go with Maderia-laced dishes, and Inkeeper only wines at 15 and below that come from way over yonder. Stay the course and buy wines you enjoy regardless of price or origin. ( OFF SOAP-BOX ) winoweenie
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 12-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 12-03-2000).]
- Botafogo - 12-03-2000
Drew, we make him check the Speculum at the door as we have almost NO wines they talk about and then start talking about the Tulip Craze in the Netherlands in the 1600's as the closest anaology to his desire for those wines while we are showing him amazing things for less money. I then hand him my business card with my HOME phone number on it and tell hem we stand behind every wine we sell, something Marvin Shanken is NOT going to do. The guy who is offended by this will never be our customer anyway and when he starts raving about us in a negative way to his friends they are generally here the next day saying "if you got him that mad you must really have something going on... show me something interesting.". AND, as a result of this, we are enjoying the seventh year of exponential growth.
The biggest lesson I learned from the restaurant business is that not everyone is your customer so concentrate on those who "get" what you are doing and don't waste energy on the rest. As a sidelight, the wines in discussion here are generally sold at cost or nearly so in our market (as "bait") and thus they would provide zero input to the bottom line anyway, VERY BAD BUSINESS practice.
Roberto
- Botafogo - 12-03-2000
And, Verne, You KNOW we think every meal should start with a great Champagne and that we champion numerous South African, Portugues and (small family owned) Caliornia wineries as well. Don't you find that the best book and record stores are the ones with points of view instead of "we've got everything but don't ask us about any of it 'cause we just work here" attitudes?
Roberto (selling some nice Grower Champagne to an employee of one of my biggest competitors as we type)
- Botafogo - 12-03-2000
But the REAL jerks are the guys who tell their secretary / assistant "get me a case each of those wine on the Top Ten list or you are fired!". We get calls this time of year from girls who are crying, really crying, in absoloute fear for their livelyhoods from this abuse and I have been actively looking for a lawyer to take on a class action suit on their behalf against the Speculum for mental torture for years. I'm certain that in NY and other centers of commerce with way too many guys (it is ALWAYS men!) with lots of money and power but no sense or taste there are thousands more of these oppressed workers.
Don't think I'm kidding cause I'm not, Roberto
- Drew - 12-03-2000
And I agree with you too, Botafogo, with your reply, but don't you feel that WS and other such "rags" are good for new and novice wine consumers and that those "rags" develop those customers for businesses such as yours?
Drew
- Botafogo - 12-03-2000
Emphatically NO!!! They feed brand anxiety, status buying and hierarchical thinking and don't ever actually teach folks to taste for themselves and trust their own palates. My ONE question to Marvin is this:
"Can you site even ONE article about the actual consumer interface, wineshops, in your magazine? I am not asking you to grade or rate them but just to tell consumers what would be, for instance, five signs that a shop is a good one and five signs that you should run out the door."
But, NO, they fawn over restaurants and hotels to no end but then they want stores to be service bureaus for them (and their advertisers). This is a GRAVE disservice to consumers because ONLY a good, motivated, informed LOCAL merchant can take advantage of and direct customers to the best values in that consumer's market. This is a VERY volitile industry and the churning and burning on the distribution side is amazing and results in "spot market" buys of incredible value on a daily basis in larger cities. Case in point: both the Speculum and Wine and Spirits are touting 1985 A. Salon this month at $200++ while we are selling it for $125!!!
Also, a good merchant remembers what you like and don't like, your comfort level of price, and your NAME and will hold you toddler while you look at old ports. Is Harvey Steinman going to do that?
The best thing for newbies is to get a good basic book along the order of Kevin Zraly's for vocabulary and then TASTE, TASTE, TASTE till they find out what THEY like.
Don't get me started, I don't have time......
Roberto
- Drew - 12-03-2000
Don't get you started? Are you kidding....I got the key and enough gas for you to drive here and back! If WS and the other rags perk just 1 iota of interest in wine to a consumer and that consumer finds his/her way to your doorstep....that's free advertising and all you got to do is water and nurture that consumer...not condemn them. Case in point is me! I stumbled into a wine shop years ago in my area with money in my left pocket and a print out of a WS list in my right. I got to talk to the owner about how much I didn't know, my wine budget (at the time), and what my general taste likes and dislikes were. He suggested a bunch of wines, some on the list and most not, and invited me back for tastings, conversation, etc. For me, a couple of the rags I read prior to stopping in, educated me somewhat about varietals, wine producing regions and overall general wine terms that allowed me to feel comfortable interacting with a wine pro. And you know what....I didn't walk in there stiff legged like Frankenstein saying "Take me to your leader". It helped me break the ice to an enormous and overwhelming subject, which’s all I'm saying. I would have eventually got there, without the rags, but it helped to boost my confidence. Just look at all the businesses run with sales people who barely know how to open the register, much less know their product. That in its' self forces a consumer to do some homework on products before ever considering venturing into a store, and that's common knowledge. I don't take everything that's written as gospel, and it seems that your saying that the common consumer does and that these wine rags act like a drug on them, well my experience was not that at all. I agree that Spectator doesn't get "down and dirty", that the restaurant articles highlight places that I'll probably never go to, nor could afford. But I enjoy the articles on the wine regions and the varietals, and for me their Tn's are generally good. I've learned how to judge them and compare them to my palate most of the time, BUT, by far my most important tool IS my tongue..... tasting, tasting ,tasting.
Drew
- Thomas - 12-04-2000
Wow, did I start something BIG!
I learned the lesson about which Roberto and I speak when I was a wine salesman for a distributor. The lesson is simple: wine retailing is NOT built on collectors or status seekers. That is all I wanted to say. The Spectator, and others, have done more to create collector-madness and that is not the business I want to be in.
Drew as usual makes good points, but Drew does not sell wine. A retailer must cater to his/her customers; collectors are not customers; they do not pay the rent on a regular basis and they take up more time than regular customers do. That is all I meant.
Oh yes, the rags feed the frenzy; they are not my friends.
WW, when you start consuming white wine, which happens to be ffity percent of the wine industry, then you can criticize my tastes. Until then, try cooking with Madeira just once; I need a convert for my resume. ...
- mrdutton - 12-04-2000
Good discussion here, really! Interesting arguments with a minimum of tongue lashing, which is really surprising! (GRIN)
I subscribe to WS and only look at the pictures. The articles bore me. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
- Drew - 12-04-2000
I'd like to hear Winecollector's take on this subject. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
Drew
- Botafogo - 12-04-2000
>>they do not pay the rent on a regular basis and they take up more time than regular customers do.<<
And they are also VERY likely to stand in your store and rant in front of your actual customers about how even though you HAVE that $200 Cabernet, your competitor (whom they have just visited and are waving his newsletter in their hand) is selling it for $199.29 so why are you "price gouging". This when (in this highly competitive market at least) the wine in question not only COST $195 wholesale net but you had to buy a bunch of other crap just for the privelige of giving it away!
No thanks, we have built a community of thousands and thousands of true wine fans with our store and do not suffer fools AT ALL let alone lightly, Roberto
- winecollector - 12-04-2000
Geezzz! I'm off line for a few hours, and look what happens! Where should I start?
First of all, I do subscribe to "the rag," as some of you like to affectionately call it. I've got to agree that I'll never visit most of the places or restraunts they discuss. But I do pay attention to the tasting notes, as they cover a whole lot more wines than I'll ever have the opportunity to drink, maybe not as many as Bucko or Winoweenie get to taste though, heeheehee.... I do try to buy the higher rated wines when available, but I'm not going to cry in my glass of $8 chianti if I can't get my hands on a bottle. If a wine receives a lot of press, and I'm curious about it, I'll buy it at least once given the chance. If it turns out to be something I like, then it's on my regular shopping list. If not, then I know not to buy it again.
Second, I split my wine budget between everyday drinkers, cellarables, and collectables, depending on the time of year, and what I'm in need of, or out of. It's nothing for me to spend $400-$500 an average month on wines, and this time of year, I'll spend between $1,500 to $2,000 a month with all the new releases coming out. I shop at about 10 different wine stores in three states. (Sorry, but if your store were only closer, Foodie....) Why so many stores? For the variety. I look for either rare wines, obscure countries, favorite wines, or off the wall stuff that no one else is really looking for, and the merchant has a hard time selling. For example, just recently picked up a black muscat from Shennendoah Vally from 97', that I do not have a clue of how it tastes, but me and about 5 or 6 friends will find out soon enough. And no, it wasn't written up in Winespectator. I buy most of my everyday drinkers at about three of the ten stores. Maybe I don't pay the rent at most of them, but I think it's safe to say I easily pay a portion of their payroll!
In my humble opinion, there's a lot of stuff that I could complain about with regard the Winespectator, and I do at times. But there are also benefits to it as well. Those benefits vary from person to person, depending on your budget, taste, location, likes and dislikes, etc. You have to take the good with the bad, if you can't do that, then hey, don't read it! They do some great food related articles in there from time to time, nowhere near as good as Innkeeper's recipies of course, (cough,) but hey! There's a little bit of something in there for everyone. Not too many people are going to pick up a newspaper and read every article in it from cover to cover. One guy may just want to read sports, someone else classieds, world news, or editorials.
As for me, give me the comics and the wine reviews. A good laugh, a good meal, and a good glass of wine (as well as something else, but I'll keep it clean here), makes my day. So whether I buy a wine on the recommendation of a friend, wine store clerk, a Winespectator or other publication's review, or just buying it blind to see what it tastes like, the fact is I'm buying wine, and giving someone my business. No, I'm not in retail. I'm only a lowly consumer. I'm just one guy that helps only some of the retail people stay in business. Other consumers with different objectives than mine, can keep the rest of the merchants going, if they so choose to.
- mrdutton - 12-04-2000
Drew, you made some very good points.
I found great pleasure today in being able to enter a wine shop, have a long detailed discussion over price points, tasting notes and qualities of various wines with the shops wine consultant.
Two years ago I'd have shied away from such a discussion. The terms I so commonly use today, such as ACIDITY, BALANCE, FRUIT, DRY, SWEET, VELVETY, SILKY, MOUTH-FEEL would have flown swiftly over my head not to very long ago.
I got that information from this Wine Board, from the people here, from reading books and from reading some of the mags; one being the one not receiving much critical acclaim in this thread.
In my post above, I was kidding. But behind all humor is a modicum of truth. I don't read all the articles, just a few - those that catch my interest after reading the first few paragraphs.....
Mostly, I do just look at the pictures......
- hotwine - 12-04-2000
I'm also a subscriber to the rag. You've got to admit, it's a polished piece of work. I concentrate on the wine & food articles, those on hotels & restaurants; and also enjoy the Grapevine column. It has all the markings of a huge ego trip for the publisher, but I like to know what's being written about, even by not-so-credible sources.
- winoweenie - 12-04-2000
I`ve read and re-read every post on this board and am solid in my belief that wine is as individual as religion, politics, and sex-orientation.( May-be Not ). Drew has the over-all view that appeals to my wine intrests most favorably. From a business stand-point, Roberto, you know I admire your merchandising expertise and enthusiam and knowledge. The over-all plan to save the universe from mediocrity and cabernets is indeed noble and in your locale you`se be doin` one-heck-of-a-job. But, and this is one BIG BUT ( Not Mine You Prevert ) "So much Wine So Little Time" gits you ole friend. The national press Has the clout and even I must confess I check what them suckers reccomend, try them, then either buy or discard the info. Foodie I`ll put SW`s on my agenda when Marvin makes Roberto his reporter-at-large. winoweenie
- Thomas - 12-04-2000
Rag is a term that comes from the days when paper really was rag (and some good paper still is). It wasn't a negative reference back then. In fact, if WS is printed on rag, then it is printed on top quality stuff, but I doubt it.
Wine Collector you are the kind of customer I seek. I intend to offer wines that are not necessarily available all around NY City. That is why I am looking for the obscure from wine regions across the U.S. and beyond. As someone alluded to, "so much wine, so little time...).
But I admit: one reason I am in the retail trade is to reduce my annual wine bill from retail to wholseale cost. I expect to save thirty percent, or to buy thirty percent more--whichever comes first.
I understand that it is difficult for passionate wine consumers to believe that there really are people out there who would waste a retailer's time--believe me guys, there are many. Roberto and I simply do not want to be in that business--that is all. I am, however, a little less strident than Roberto. I won't throw the bums out; they will leave on their own accord as soon as I tell them what I think.
As for WS and all other gurus and such: perhaps they perform a service but it is not the kind of service to which I subscribe. This country remains at the bottom of wine consumption among the top industrialized nations, and gurus do nothing to help change that statistic. The general public considers wine untouchable, and at $200 a bottle it is--hell, at $50 a bottle it is for most people.
Question just occured to me: by what standard is a wine rated among the top one-hundred or the top ten, and why is that standard used?
I am rambling--must be all that cheap Graves I had at the wine bar.
- RAD - 12-05-2000
Drew and Winecollector, I agree with you.
My name is Ric, and I'm a WS subscriber. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
I've found some articles helpful, and others a complete waste of time (the recent cover story on the Rothchilds comes to mind). But I cannot understand why so many self-proclaimed enophiles lambaste it. Sounds more like Nietzschean _ressentiment_ to me. If your palate is so much better than WS or Robert Parker, get out and say it! Put out a new publication, if that's what it takes! Of course, that is why we're all here... [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
We all agree that our own palates should be our guide. But why should I believe Roberto or Foodie or CCK in their respective establishments any more than WS? Not to offend any of you three, but do any of you have the time to cultivate and/or know my own likes and dislikes? I believe that any suggestions that you'd make would indeed be genuine and even altruistic, but would they be any closer to the mark than those offered in WS?
Of course, in a sense, I, too, have "graduated" from WS, even though I still keep my subscription. But if someone is adamant about wanting to buy a wine because of a rating, so be it! Who cares? If a customer wants to proselytized, allow him to be--but don't force him. Enough of the puritanical pontificating!
I just returned from a business trip to Asia. In Japan, there is a saying: "o kyaku sama wa kami sama", which means, "the customer is a god." If retailers took this to heart, perhaps WS's opinions would be just that.
RAD
[This message has been edited by RAD (edited 12-05-2000).]