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- Brom - 10-30-2003

"I need to know how to recommend wines based off of the actual location of the vineyard (mountains vs. valley, coastal vs. inland, one valley vs. another)"

The simple answer is, you are not going to be able to it.

The simple question is, who would want you to do so?

You as a waiter want to be a sommelier and a highly skilled one at that. You are not going to be able to do that based on reading one or two books, tasting every wine you serve once or based on the advice of the makers or taking a course. Sommeliers are made, not born.

You cannot become "well informed" in a month or even two. Drinking "one or two whole bottles a day" will not help you.

It seems that what you don't know about wine service is shown by the simple question above. Why do you think you would have to recommend a wine based on a hillside location?


- winoweenie - 10-30-2003

Yabba to answer your question, all dessert wines show best at 45-50*. LHRs' and Sauternes are a fitting end to a great meal. WW


- yabloka - 10-30-2003

So Brom, you mean to tell me that there are absolutely no differences between a wine grown in a warm inland valley and a wine from a cool coastal mountain? I beg to differ because I can notice a difference. Is there another site I can go to get questions addressed? I'm trying to learn and have questions answered, not be put down. Apparently I spoke too soon about this board being a welcome place where I would not feel inadequate.


- Innkeeper - 10-30-2003

Don't let one person turn you off. There is a difference between knowing a lot about wine both practically and theoretically, and knowing from which side of a certain valley or other grapes were grown on. Certainly more broadly you should be able to know whether the cabernet is from Napa or Sonoma Valley, but narrowing it further down requires a lot of experiance. You can't learn it all at once.


- Kcwhippet - 10-30-2003

Yabloka,

Don't know who brom is, but don't let him/her get to you. We get folks like that around here frequently. Generally, they blow off steam for a few weeks then they either settle down or they disappear.

So, what ever happened to wineguru? Thought he had a strategy to answer all of yablonka's problems. Where'd he go?


- Drew - 10-30-2003

yabloka, if your employer is requiring this of you then he must allow you tastings of the wines so you can record your impressions. Everyone's palate is different and trying to determine the subtle notes of many wines to match with specific foods is almost impossible. I think it would be better if you tried to gain info on your restaurants wines in broader terms eg.. this wine is lush, displays more dark fruit or red fruit, is international in style or shows old world notes, is showing pronounced oak or leans more to a green side etc. etc and on and on. And here's the big problem, after you get a handle on your current list, a new vintage appears with different characteristics.


- yabloka - 10-31-2003

Thanks guys. I realize I asked the impossible of impossibles, but by doing so I have gotten some really useful advice and support. I knew I shouldn't be put off by such a nasty comment, but it angered me because that is the type of person who scares people away from wine. I love wine and I have for awhile. It has just been evolving from a passing hobby to a passion of mine. Anyways, I again wanted to say thanks. My dogs are tired and it is time for me so get some sleep.

Hey Wineguru! How's that strategy of yours coming along?


- Brom - 10-31-2003

"I knew I shouldn't be put off by such a nasty comment"

Just what was the alleged nasty comment? That you won't be able to learn in a month to be a sommelier?

That there is no need to recommend wines by their hillside/valley location?

Please advise.

Man, you guys are sensitive. I really don't know what I have said to have so many people saying that my comments should "turn you off". How? Even "Innkeeper" who says exactly what I say believes that me saying it turns people off. We both said the same thing.

You jump to conclusions apparently without reading what I said:

"you mean to tell me that there are absolutely no differences between a wine grown in a warm inland valley and a wine from a cool coastal mountain"

No. Not only do I not mean to tell you that, I didn't. You mean to tell me you think I said this? Please point out where.

Finally, you post "I realize I asked the impossible of impossibles"

Well, if you realize it, how have I gone wrong in agreeing with you?

This is open to everyone. Please point out where and how I was nasty and said things to "turn people off" from wine. Point out where I was incorrect. I have included my entire post below that you may easily take note


- ShortWiner - 10-31-2003

It's a question of tone, Brom, not accuracy. There are a lot of basic and/or ill-informed questions posted to this board (yabloka's not being among them), and the answers they get from the knowledgable people on this board are almost always characterized by friendliness and encouragement. I, for one, really like it that way. Though I'm no longer asking questions like "what's the best white Merlot from Florida," I like frequenting the board partly because such queries are handled gently and with respect by the regulars.

I think bits in your post like "It seems that what you don't know about wine service is shown by the simple question above" conveyed an air of superiority and disrespect. Yabloka didn't deserve that in the least. IK may have basically agreed with you, but he did it in way that was encouraging and positive.

[This message has been edited by ShortWiner (edited 10-31-2003).]


- Brom - 10-31-2003

"It seems that what you don't know about wine service is shown by the simple question above"

Do I say "you don't know anything about wine service." No. I specify one thing that the Yabloka does not know about wine service. This is offensive? This should be encouraging to Yabloka. he or she doesn't have to attempt the admittedly impossible.

I would note that the Yabloka did not answer the question I posted, choosing instead to pretend that I said something I didn't. That doesn't offend people though - 'Do you mean to say this? I hope not 'cos I know better.' Yes. That is certainly a pleasant tone.

I am surprised that people think when a poster asks people with knowledge superior to theirs a question, that it is inappropriate to exhibit that superior knowledge. If I didn't have superior knowledge to the poster I could not answer the question.

A question was asked. I answered it honestly and politely. I cast no personal aspersions. I said "No, you can't do it." and "You don't have to do it" and "Overdrinking is no way to do it."

Those are statements of fact. Yabloka may not like that he or she cannot become a skilled sommelier in the next month or so, recommending that a hillside grown Merlot will best suit a customer's gustatory needs, but nobody including me is casting any blame for that. That kind of knowledge takes time and experience to accrue.


- yabloka - 10-31-2003

"The simple answer is you are not going to be able to do it"

Thank you Shortwiner. I couldn't have said it better. How things are said vs. actual content is a big deal. While Brom's tone was condescending, I understood what was being said. I realize I have alot to learn, and I realize it is not going to happen overnight, or even before I start working. Thanks to the helpful support I've received on this board, and from my friends, I feel like I have gone from "I like this wine" to "I like this wine because..." Wine knowledge isn't everything when it comes to the restaurant business. Having people skills is what makes a waiter successful in the first place. And no, I'm not having one to two bottles a day. I wouldn't get out of bed until noon each day if that was the case. I'll let you in on a little secret. This new job is so important to me because I would be making enough money to quit my two jobs and stay home with my daughter and focus on my studies more. THAT is why my hunger for knowledge has been somewhat accelerated. All of that aside, Happy Halloween everyone. I'll be celebrating with a Barelli Creek Zinfandel.

[This message has been edited by yabloka (edited 10-31-2003).]


- quijote - 10-31-2003

Well, for what it's worth, Brom....

I also thought the phrasing of your comments (and not necessarily their content) was a bit off-putting. This impression, I think, comes partly from your direct citation of Yabloka's comments within your very frank response; the use of quotation marks makes it seem like you're mocking her. Perhaps that was not your intention, but it's the sort of rhetoric one tends to find in heated political debate. (Example: "So just where are these 'weapons of mass destruction'?") As others here have said, your basic message is well taken, but how you say it can make a difference in tone.

I've noticed that you use direct citation quite a bit, but not always to support a key assertion or crucial stage in an argument. Overuse of direct citations in a medium such as a discussion forum may be seen as confrontational and/or mocking. If you tone that down and just respond by using your own words, maybe the intended gentleness and helpfulness of your response will be more evident.


[This message has been edited by quijote (edited 10-31-2003).]


- Kcwhippet - 10-31-2003

"I am surprised that people think when a poster asks people with knowledge superior to theirs a question, that it is inappropriate to exhibit that superior knowledge. "

Brom, It's one thing to exhibit superior knowledge and a totally different matter to exhibit superiority. The former is very, very often exhibited here on the Wine Board by many of the regulars when responding to questions from others. The latter exhibits itself as an attitude that one believes oneself to be superior to the questioner and a desire to make the questioner believe it also. Yabloka aptly characterized it as having a condescending tone. Those who come to this board soon realize that winoweenie has superior knowledge of Bordeaux and Cabernet Sauvignon wines, Innkeeper has superior knowledge of really great QPR wines, and the list goes on. What you'll see are opinions expressed in a succinct and informative manner usually with a generous dose of humor. However, what you don't see is any of those folks flaunting that knowledge for the sake of exhibiting any inflated egos. All of us here on the Wine Board welcome people wanting to grow their knowledge base, as we welcome those with a willingness to share their knowledge in a pleasant, non-confrontational setting. There are plenty of fori out there where people tend to exhibit their "superior" knowledge with demeaning, condescending posts. This isn't one of them.


- Brom - 10-31-2003

Nothing demeaning, nothing condescending in my post. No one points anything out - they just don't like the way I phrased it. I said what I meant in plain English.

Even Yabloka says "I understood what was being said" - he or she still chose to get offended even while understanding that there was nothing offensive.

Yes, I direct quote language. That is "off-putting"? What direct quoting does is avoid making up false claims of what people said or meant. See for example yabloka's initial response to me.

In yabloka's most recent reply, the following language of mine is quoted: "The simple answer is you are not going to be able to do it"

So tell me - condescending? Superior? Off-putting? Demeaning? Or is it merely what it describes itself as: a simple answer?


- quijote - 10-31-2003

Brom--My observation is that you overuse direct citation in your responses. As a result, your comments seem overly confrontational and derisive. Your citations fall into two groups: citations that support an argument, and citations that merely have a rhetorical role. here's an example of the latter:

<<Man, you guys are sensitive. I really don't know what I have said to have so many people saying that my comments should "turn you off". How? Even "Innkeeper" who says exactly what I say believes that me saying it turns people off. We both said the same thing.>>

When I try reading this passage out loud, the two citations ("turn you off" and "Innkeeper") seem to be forms of sneering. Do you not believe that people were turned off? Do you not believe that Innkeeper merits the handle he has assigned himself? Shall we refer to you as "Brom"?

With regard to the use of citations for argument, it is the judicious use of citation--not its overuse--that helps to bolster an occasional point. Very few of us come here looking for a scholarly argument or a legal case, so it is not necessary to answer people's posts as if we were preparing for an audit or a trial. This is a reasonably informal discussion forum. If someone wants proof of a claim, a request for such will be made. Except for posts like the one I am currently writing, there is usually little need here to mount elaborate arguments--replete with textual evidence--to answer most questions. A simple answer--a truly simple, straightforward, and constructive answer--will do just fine.

And a final comment: Perhaps Yabloka's aspirations to learn all the nuances about wine are rather high, but so what? Shoot for the stars and land on the moon, I say. Let Yabloka enjoy her high ambitions for now, and let her tailor those ambitions (or meet them) as she learns more. After all, aren't we all on this board because we like wine and want to learn more about it?


[This message has been edited by quijote (edited 10-31-2003).]


- Thomas - 10-31-2003

I knew I couldn't leave this group for a long period of time--hey ww!

Brom, I think we have been on this road with you before. Ask yourself this question: if my posts cause so much stirring in so many people, is there a possibility one or more of those people might be right-or is it that only I am right?

I would love to know the answer.

Yabloka, earlier I said I sense winemaker in you, what with all your questions and the chemistry classes. You might want to consider taking some serious wine courses--I think you would like it.

But I take issue with one thing about your comments--light issue, that is; no serious chiding. Some of us drink about a bottle of wine a day, and we do it not to get drunk but because we have many years of experience with the product, and loads of respect for it too. With a few exceptions, I notice that passionate wine drinkers rarely get drunk. OK, winoweenie is THE exception...


- Brom - 10-31-2003

For pity's sake, using direct quotation is a form of abuse?

Another example of why i use direct quotation.

It is noted that Y's aspirations are high - I should let her enjoy them. When did I say she couldn't aspire? Did I ever say she could not learn about wine?

The original post said she is taking a new job and needs to be come an expert in recommending wines for that job. As she has the job already "I've recently been given an opportunity to work at a place" (That means she has already received the opportunity) I said that could not learn this skill in time for the job. I said "You cannot become "well informed" in a month or even two".

Perhaps if you would directly quote, you would not unfoundedly accuse me of dampening her aspirations.

Responses longer than mine tell me that I am too elaborate in my posts.

I am told I directly quote too often - I used two in my response to Yabloka.

So as you suggest, I ask myself - just as I thought - it turns out it is indeed you who are wrong.

No skin off my nose. If you don't like how I write, don't read my responses. You'll learn a lot less, but you'll be happier. Those that are adult enough to read and understand what I am saying without getting their jockeys in a knot will accrue the benefits.


- winoweenie - 10-31-2003

Foodie-Poo welcome back and note I take Delerious object to that-there-derned assertion. Foodster your travels have definately added to your finite side. You are almost civil in your admonition of our new devils advocate. I think your kind and accurate assement of Ys' newfound love of wines is rite on. She is showing the determination and focus that is needed to stay the course and learn the product. I'll state now in the forum that I'll be happy to have her E-Mail me any questions about any product she is confused about (AS LONG AS IT BE RED). As an aside the locale of any wine is as important, or more so, than the winmakers skill. Hillside vineyards are normally easily identified as the Y-Girl said and the difference in ALL wines is as them Frenchies say, Terrior. It is important and can be learned and I applaud Yablonkas' knowledge of same at this point in her development. Keep going for the apple and we'll be here to help at any juncture. WW


- quijote - 10-31-2003

Actually, Brom, you cite Yabloka three times in your first response.

(Compare the above with: <<Actually, "Brom," you "cite" Yabloka three times in your first "response.">> Are you still not getting my drift??)

And yes, the use of quote marks can be a form of verbal abuse. That sort of punctuation calls attention to the original text in a way not done by one's original rewording of text. Read a few newspaper articles to capture this idea, or listen to the sarcasm of comedians like Dennis Miller.

Or better yet, just be less confrontational. You don't need to write Supreme Court cases to express your opinion here.

And if someone wants to do something that sounds overly ambitious to you, there's no need to play skeet-shoot with that person's words. Just chill, chat, and be constructive.


- Kcwhippet - 10-31-2003

Hey, brom, why don't you chill a bit. You are definitely getting a tad tedious. To badly quote Shakespeare (or somebedy) "I fear he doth protest too much." Just give it a rest and live longer.