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+--- Thread: What's the difference??? (/thread-19488.html)
- cward - 02-14-2003
What is the difference between Bordeaux and Cabernet Sauvignon? Thanks.
- Kcwhippet - 02-14-2003
Bordeaux is a city in France, as well as the name of the region around the city where a wine of the same name is produced. Cabernet Sauvignon is a grape variety, which just coincidently is found in some wines from Bordeaux. Cabernet Sauvignon is grown in just about every wine producing region in the world, and wine of varying degrees of quality is made from it.
- sgutte - 02-14-2003
There is however a connection. European wines are what they call "Old World" and one of the things about old world is that they would not name the grape variety of their wines, but rather where they came from. Red Bordeaux wines were mostly Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot (or at least this is what they are famous for), but not necessarily 100% (mostly blends).
Burgundy, Chablis, Champaign - all names of wine regions
Chardonay, Merlot, Pinot Noir - names of grape varities.
[This message has been edited by sgutte (edited 02-14-2003).]
[This message has been edited by sgutte (edited 02-15-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 02-14-2003
One thing that's been happening lately is that those "old world" wines are starting to label with the grape variety, just like the "new world". Some of the folks I've spoken to from Europe say they're doing it because people tend to get confused by the typical European labelling.
- Thomas - 02-14-2003
sgutte, which law are you referring to?
In the U.S. I know of no law that specifically prohibits wine producers from using place names in Europe such as Chablis, Burgundy and Champagne. The Europeans, especially the French, hate us for that oversight.
In the European Union such practices are prohibited.
- cward - 02-14-2003
Thanks, everybody! What great info.
- joeyz6 - 02-14-2003
I'm under the impression that the practice of calling American wines 'Chablis' or 'Burgundy' has diminished thanks to ethics rather than a law. As Foodie said, there are very strict regulations against such a practice on this side of the pond. But in America, I think that producers just started to realize how corny and classless it is.
- Thomas - 02-14-2003
If you dig deeper in the subject of varietal labeling as opposed to place names you will likely discover that the American wine industry came to the conclusion to use varietal labeling as a means to distinguish "low-level" wines from "high-level."
In other words, Americans (which still are not the world's largest per-capita wine consumers--not even close) were deeply invested in the names of European places because that is where we were led to believe the best wines came from; a few decades ago there was truth in that belief. But as West Coast producers of the nineteen sixties and seventies began to prove that better wines were also produced domestically, they had to separate themselves from the domestic products that ruled the wine world at the time: California chablis, burgundy, rhine wine, et al.
In addition, our appellation system under the BATF does not have much teeth (with regard to place-name regulation and production stringency). Back then, naming the wines Napa or Sonoma would have made no impact on the consumer just as sure as naming them after the producers, most of which were unknown.
And so, they opted for varietal labeling.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-14-2003).]
- mrdutton - 02-14-2003
I had an inkling of an impression that sometime too long ago there was a discussion about the labeling of 'box' wines.
Had something to do about truth in advertising.......
My memory is not clear on this but I thought that the US Gov't finally decided that the box wines that were called Chabils and Burgundy and such could no longer be marketed because there is no such varietal.
I thought it had become a regulation (which is not really a law but has similar force) of the Food and Drug Administration's push toward truth in labeling.
Maybe I was wrong........??????
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 02-14-2003).]
- Thomas - 02-14-2003
Mr. D, the FDA has no label regulatory jurisdiction over wine--it comes under the BATF.
I have not heard of the reg you speak about regarding box wines. Maybe someone on the board knows more about it.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-14-2003).]
- mrdutton - 02-15-2003
Well like WW says, the memory is the third thing to go........
I thought BATF but I said FDA. Somewhere along the line there was some serious stuff spoke about box wines and the misleading labels on them.....
Uh, I dunno 'bout the details but I do remember the discussion was about using terms like Chablis and Burgundy and then using ingredients like wine with added fruit juices and alcohol.....
I truely was under the impression that the box stuff was gonna go away........ guess I was wrong.
- sgutte - 02-15-2003
My previous reply (which I corrected) I stated that US law restricted US wine makers from using names of French regions in their wine labeling - I was mistaken (thanks foodie for setting me straight)
In fact, I found that some infamous "culprits" are Andre Champagne and Hearty Burgundy - both made by Gallo - Korbel Champagne and Inglenook Chablis.
- Thomas - 02-15-2003
sgutte, a cursory trip around a liquor store yesterday turned up a few more culprits. I suppose some producers cannot let it go.
I had an argument with a Finger Lakes producer who uses the word champagne on his labels. His argument is: "if it walks like a duck and it looks like a duck, it's a duck," meaning he produces the wine in the Champagne method. Lame argument, as far as I am concerned.
I asked him how he would feel if the French produced wine labeled finger lakes. He asked me why they would do such a thing!
You often cannot make people think beyond their special interest. It is in his interest to keep the consumer confused about the word champagne, and so he goes right on doing it. It is also in the interest of those bulk wine producers to keep consumers in the dark. Apparently, it is in the interest of the BATF to keep the status quo, although I have no clue why...
Mr. D, you are referring, I think, to those bulk wines that had varietals on their labels but had no such varietals in the wine--or very little. They used words like Chardonnay that were followed by a qualifier or some such nonsense. That was a clear sidestep of regulations.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-15-2003).]
- mrdutton - 02-15-2003
That must be it, Foodie. Thanks for the shot to the memory cells.
- Thomas - 02-15-2003
Here's one for you Mr. D: the Homeland Security shuffle has resulted in separating wine and tobacco from firearms--quite a good idea, don't you think? I don't know what the BATF is called these days.
- sunset - 03-03-2003
this is so enlightening. one question had been on my mind since reading the first message on this topic, and foodie promptly answered it. the Q was: why would american producers name their wines after European places?? if one were to believe the argument of your Finger lakes friend, then it is an assumption that each place produces wine in a uniquely different way, right? if this is the case, and American producers want to use place names without misleading the public, they should have appended "method" (e.g. Chablis method)on their labels. corny, but at least truthful.
- Thomas - 03-03-2003
...only truthful to a degree. Let me explain.
In Chablis the soil is specific to the region, the area of vineyard allowed is specific to the region, and the grapes grown are specific in the region. In order for an American producer to use the word "method" the specifics would have to be the same.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-03-2003).]
- thewoodman - 03-03-2003
To add to the confusion, aren't the laboratory mixed drinks like Wild Vines (I think that's the name) get away with names like blackberry merlot or somesuch by being below the alcohol level regulated by BATF. My understanding is that they are mostly water, fruit juice and a little wine.