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+--- Thread: Which is the original? (/thread-19124.html)
- BUDDY - 02-12-2003
My brother and i have a bet on the origin of Shriraz/Syrah(sp?) did the "Wine originate in Austarilia or France? i am not talking about the Grape nor blends with the Grape in it but 100% Wine?
I say the grape is a Varital that got it's start in France and originated in???? but the Aussies made the first 100% wine,and now like merlots everybody makes one to cash in on the popularity.Who is right?
- sgutte - 02-13-2003
As you may know, French inwes typically do not call there wines by the varital name even if it is 100%. Many Northern Rhone Valley wines are 100% Syrah - Crozes Hermitage, Cote Rotie and Cornas to name a few.
- Kcwhippet - 02-13-2003
The Syrah grape was brought to France during the crusades which took place in the 1200's. There have been wines made from the grape both blended and straight varietal ever since. Syrah cuttings were taken to Australia around 1850, so the French Syrah wine predates the Australian Shiraz wine by about 600 years. I wouldn't say everyone's making a Syrah/Shiraz all of a sudden. Winemakers have been making it for quite awhile, with mixed results. With the latest acquired knowledge about planting in very specific microclimates, vineyard management and winemaking techniques, the wines have become exciting and more people are growing the grape and making the wine.
- joeyz6 - 02-13-2003
Doesn't the grape actually originate from Croatia, or someplace around there? I thought I remembered hearing that it comes from a region or city called Shiraz.
- Innkeeper - 02-13-2003
According to Foodster it could be closely related to the first viniferas, coming out of mountains south of the Caspian Sea in Northern Iran.
- Kcwhippet - 02-13-2003
The parent of Zinfandel is a grape called Crljenik Kasteljanski, and it comes from Croatia. It also turns out that Primitivo in Italy actually comes from cuttings Italians sent from California to Italy in the late 1800's. Syrah/Shiraz was thought to come originally from Shiraz in Iran. Shiraz is the capital of Fars province and it's in the south of the country. Current research tends to indicate the grape came from the Caucusus mountains in Armenia near the Turkish border (near the Caspian Sea) and that's much further north than the city of Shiraz, which is near the Persian Gulf.
- stevebody - 02-13-2003
The way I got the story, from a professor/pal at Cambridge, is that the grape originated in Croatia and was originally brought to France by Persian traders (the trading heavyweights in almost everything in those days) who couldn't even pronounce the Croat name - and knew that the snotty French wouldn't even try - so they renamed it after their hometown in Persia (Iran): Shiraz. A professor friend of mine at VA Tech, BTW, says the Primitivo made the trip to CA with the waves of Italian immigrants in the 1850s-60s and was planted so heavily that the Californians got sick of it and stopped drinking it. The Italians, wily as they are, later renamed that one for marketing purposes, hence the handle "Zinfandel". I've asked two linguists for the etymology of that word and they both pled ignorance. Doncha love a mystery?
- Auburnwine - 02-13-2003
Den Namen Zierfandler (Spätrot) erhielt er deshalb, weil sich seine Beeren erst beim Eintreten der Vollreife rötlich färben.
That's my story about Zinfandel (and the autochthon grape from lower Austria) and I'm sticking with it.
- mrdutton - 02-13-2003
For the 'mother' of all discussions concerning this wonderful varietal, at least on this site, check the following link:
http://www.wines.com/ubb2/Forum22/HTML/000036.html
- Drew - 02-13-2003
It received the name Zierfandler (late red) because its berries turn reddish color first in entering full maturity. Did I translate correctly?
Drew
- Kcwhippet - 02-13-2003
Just did some more research on the Syrah grape, and I missed Dr. Meredith's latest work. Check this site - www.chalonewinegroup.com/education/articles/syrah/syrah.pdf. According to Dr. Carole Meredith's DNA research, Syrah/Shiraz is actually indigenous to France as it's a cross between Dureza and Mondeuse Blanche. So it didn't originate in Iran or Armenia, but rather in France. As to Zinfandel, it's journey began in Croatia then to the imperial gardens in Austria, then to Massachusetts where it was called Black St. Peter and finally to California.
[This message has been edited by Kcwhippet (edited 02-13-2003).]
- joeyz6 - 02-13-2003
The fact that we're discussing two varietals at the same time has my head spinning ... Croatia, Iran, France, Persian Gulf, Italy, California ... oh là lÃ
- Thomas - 02-13-2003
IK, in my book I say that scholars believe the Shiraz grape originated in Persia in the south, around the city of Shiraz and was brought to France by traders. Said it that way because when I was researching for the book I could not find definitive information on the subject.
While living in Iran, in the 1970s, I drank a southern Iranian red wine that tasted very much like Shiraz. It was named 1001.
I never said this, but I have a suspicion that Riesling, or a distant parent of it, originates in northern Iran. Also drank Rieslings that were produced in the north of Iran--spectacular wines they were.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-13-2003).]