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+--- Thread: Tannin count in red wine (/thread-18774.html)
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- RedinNJ - 11-03-2003
I used to drink Merlots and Cabernets. But a couple years ago I started experiencing terrible headaches the day after - even if I only drank one or two glasses. A friend suggested trying a wine with a lower tannin count like Pinot Noir. I did and the change was amazing - no headaches at all. My question is which other wines have low tannin counts? And which wines with high tannin counts should I avoid?
- Innkeeper - 11-04-2003
Hi Red, and welcome to the Wine Board. My gut tells me that tannin is not your problem, but then again it could be. Merlot is a grape that is know for mild, smooth tannin in its wines. Cabernet can have harsh tannin when young, but they simply taste bitter or grainy, not normally causing headaches.
What pinot noir has that merlot and cabernet don't have is higher acid. Maybe that is what is agreeing with you. If so, you may also like gamay (found in Beaujolais and the Cru Beaujolais), barbera (found in California and Northern Italy), and sangiovese (found in Chianti and other Tuscan wines).
- Thomas - 11-04-2003
I never heard of tannin causing headaches. The subject of headaches and wine has been discussed at length on this board--our resident physician, Bucko, gave many, many words to this subject. Trace some past posts under Wine and Health.
My suspicion is you react to the combination of oak residue plus histamines in red wine that get stronger as wines are allowed to ferment under hotter temperatures and at longr periods of time, extracting more and more from the skins. I assume the Pinot Noirs you drink are American-produced--those wines are generally lighter than Merlots and Cabernets.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-04-2003).]
- wineguruchgo - 11-04-2003
The headaches are not from tannins. It is from a chemical in your brain that is released from the consumption of red wine. The chemical, prostaglandin, is not released with white wine and the wine industry and scientists are trying to figure out why.
If you want to go back to drinking your favorite Cabs or Merlots, try taking an asprin (not tylenol) a real asprin, one hour before you go out. In the article I read this will help allievate the headaches.
- Thomas - 11-04-2003
wineguru, since red is produced differently from white wine, the process for red drawing more from the skins, it is in the skins where the answer likely lies. The skins hold a lot of substances not the least is tannin but also chemicals that grapes use for survival plus other chemicals and components.
- Kcwhippet - 11-04-2003
I read something awhile ago that mentioned that tyramine had a potential for causing severe headaches, particularly in people taking an MAOI.
- Innkeeper - 11-04-2003
None of the above accounts his or her's ability to drink pinot without a problem.
- Thomas - 11-04-2003
IK, maybe I wan't clear enough but I addressed that issue in my comment about the type of Pinot Noir, i.e. from America; they are mostly lighter than their French counterparts and therefore they likely include less extract. And my contention is that the extract is the culprit.
More importantly, however, is we have heard nothing from redinNJ after our posts. Does you believe us or does you not?
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-04-2003).]
- wineguruchgo - 11-05-2003
Foodie I understand where you are going with this and I found some info on line about it. The article I read was from 7-8 years ago when I was still waiting tables. I carried it with me because I wanted my customers to drink red wine.
I thought searching the web after all these years would have returned a larger response, but I only found one article written. Here is what it says on the subject:
God created fleas, mosquitoes, poison oak, acne, corns, colic and Red Wine Headache just to be certain of Adam’s on going contrition.
Lots of people will mention in the tasting room that they are "allergic" to red wine. What they describe is a pounding, symmetrical headache, associated with nausea and sometimes a flushing or "hot flashes" sensation. It’s not pleasant. It occurs relatively soon after drinking red wine-within an hour- and it usually doesn’t take much more than a glass to trigger the effect.
Other beverages with considerably more alcohol do not trigger the headache, and white wine usually can be taken moderately with no ill effects. RWH is definitely different from the "hangover," which occurs 6 to 12 hours after drinking and only after imprudent amounts of consumption. Perhaps the most striking part of RWH is its resemblance to migraine headache, with its throbbing, severe pain and queasy stomach and quirks to circulation. Migraine is a common disorder, still of unknown cause, in which the blood vessels in the head constrict and then dilate. Indeed, red wine has been shown to be able to set off headaches in known migraine sufferers; but not all migraine patients experience this effect, and plenty of people without migraines do get RWH.
There is not a lot of scientific literature on RWH, since it isn’t rare, novel, or sexually transmitted. However, some new information has come to light. It may be easiest to describe what it is not.
It is not an allergic reaction to alcohol, sulfites, or additives. Amines (histamine and tyramine) were thought for a long time to be the culprit. While small amounts are present in grape skins they are not present in high enough levels to be problematic. Tannins or pigments in red grapes can set off a reaction in the blood system that resembles a migraine, but this seems to affect only a small portion of sufferers.
The most recent studies lean toward a grape skin derived material that may be absorbed, then converted by the body after lag time into an active agent.
That can in turn trigger the blood vessel disturbance. One such material is prostaglandin, which is a remarkably potent substance. Prostaglandin inhibitor medicines, such as aspirin or the more potent Advil or Nuprin, have been found to block the development of RWH in some people. Some people with RWH have found it worthwhile to test their own headache physiology by taking one of the medications (such as Advil), then drinking a small amount of red wine. Some find successful prevention. Others may simply need to stay with white wine.
People who claim that they can’t handle red wine are probably telling the honest truth. Be assured that it is not impurities or chemical additives or insecticide residues that cause RWH but rather a natural part of the grape as modified through natural fermentation. People respond differently to any natural substance. The key word to red wine headache is sensitivity.
- Thomas - 11-05-2003
That is where I was heading. Notice the mention of "other" compounds in grape skins. This here grape skin thing is quite complicated...
What amazes me is the strength of myth. Just this week two people came into my store and told me that tannins in red wine give them headaches. This is after years of hearing that sulfites give headaches--perhaps the tannin myth is being floated right now over the suflite myth. When I asked the people how they knew that "fact" about tannin and their headache they had no answer other than they heard it somewhere. I don't undertsand why people so readily accept heresay as answers to what obviously is a painful condition that requires medical attention. But worse for us in the wine business, how people can simply cast aside red wine or any wine on the basis of heresay.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-05-2003).]
- wineguruchgo - 11-05-2003
Well Foodie since people tend to believe what they read more so than what they hear - print out what I copied and post it on the wall!
Just one Bayer asprin should help. It's that simple!
- Thomas - 11-05-2003
wineguru, you give me an idea. We sell an Austrian Pinot Blanc; the producer's name is Bayer. I'll send a bottle of wine and a package of aspirin and bill it as "the two Bayers!"
Maybe, since Bayer was the pharmaceutical company that developed the chemical structure that created heroin, I could add heroin to the two and call it, "the three Bayers." Now that would make is-wine a popular place to shop...and nobody would leave with a headache.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-05-2003).]
- yabloka - 11-06-2003
Great idea Foodie! Don't let the DEA know!
- Brom - 11-14-2003
"Tannins or pigments in red grapes can set off a reaction in the blood system that resembles a migraine, but this seems to affect only a small portion of sufferers."
This is stated in the article above. It is the only authority cited. It does not say that people do not get headaches from tannins. It says that they do.
- Thomas - 11-14-2003
Yeah Brom, that is what one paragraph states, and it states that it applies to a small portion of sufferers--did you read the rest of the article, the part about the most recent studies?
Also, part of my point is that I am amazed at how readily people accept heresay with their medical conditions instead of making the effort to find out what causes their problems.
- Kcwhippet - 11-14-2003
Well, there's that confrontational, argumentative, antagonistic, etc., etc., etc. type of statement again. Just can't get out of that groove, can you?
- Thomas - 11-14-2003
I re-read Brom's post and just picked up on his reference to the "only authority cited." I think I cited Bucko, our resident physician, and his many posts and citings on this subject.
Brom and RedinNJ, you'll have to do a little digging on your own--incidentally, where is redinNJ?
- Brom - 11-18-2003
All I am doing is pointing out that it is not a myth as it has been characterized both before and after the posting of this report.
It is the only authority cited herer. Saying someone has posted on this before is not a cited authority.
Yes, I read the whole article.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle a vessel. (Look it up).
- winoweenie - 11-18-2003
We're Blessed Again WW
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 11-18-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 11-18-2003
What? I don't get it. I see the words but I don't know what they mean.