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+--- Thread: foray into france (/thread-18621.html)
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- Bucko - 01-12-2003
Does the word agitator come to mind for anyone?
- Innkeeper - 01-12-2003
Much of the criticism of Bordeaux is both old and true. However, I abhor alls, always, and nevers in reference to efforts by mankind. Certainly some, if not much, Bordeaux is overpriced, traditionally made to a fault, etc; but I find that though I drink anywhere from ten to twenty times more Rhone than Bordeaux, I look forward to popping one or two well aged Bordeaux each year that I did not pay a lot for in the first place.
How do you do this? You find two or three players in Bordeaux that have the same dedication that some of the afore mentioned Rhoners have, and stay with them decade in and decade out.
- Kcwhippet - 01-12-2003
Did for me, Bucko.
- stevebody - 01-12-2003
I can live with "agitator". Sometimes it gets dialogs started, even if people wind up thinking I'm an idiot. Having had my say on Bordeaux, let me offer this: The most interesting things I've had out of that region in the past few years were the oddball, fringe areas of the appellation, the sur mer stuff. Some of the names of the houses may have you thinking you've stumbled into the Rhone but they're Bordeaux and a lot of them are doing some really wild, creative things. Oxygen injection, barreling in different oaks - and sometimes not oak at all! - stainless and concrete fermentation, cultivated native yeasts, wild yeasts, you name it. They make Helen Turley look like a dullard and, of course, some of the wines are truly bizzare but the ones that work, freakin' WORK. They're very obscure. One importer here in Sea-patch - Elliott Bay Dist. - has created a sub-specialty of finding and importing these things. My friend Hal, who owns Elliott, delights in these freaky gems and I've tried quite a few of them. Commercially, they're a bomb right now and I don't mean "da bomb". I've read a few things in trade publications about them but there's still a ton of room to dig up stuff that will have your friends think you're Marco Flippin'-Polo of wine discovery. Dig out your Hugh Johnson's, find these outlying areas and play a little.
- Thomas - 01-12-2003
Stevebody, I like agitation (been accused myself). I also don't mind opinion (have a few of those too--how else can one agitate?). But the subject is wine, and unless I missed something these past twenty years in the business as grape grower, winemaker, wine writer, and wine retailer--not all at once, mind you--I thought that after you remove the technical discussion of wine (its flaws and its attributes), what remained was mostly subjectivity.
I agree, there are thousands of marvelous wines throughout the world--some at great prices, some at extraterrestial prices. Yes, regional producers, at least in Europe, often show similarities in their wines. Yet, when you tear a complete particular region apart your brush stroke is too big--and you advertise mere subjectivity.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 01-12-2003).]
- Bucko - 01-12-2003
......what remained was mostly subjectivity.....
Bingo. Wine is like a yard sale -- one man's trash is another man's treasure. I don't like a lot of wines because they are not my style. That doesn't make them bad. To summarily dismiss ANY region of the world is just silly IMHO.
Do I like the lofty levels that CA, OR, and some WA wines have reached? No. Do I buy them? No. I can buy wonderful Rhone, Bordeaux, SUD, and New Zealand wines at a fraction of the cost. Do I denigrate other regions? No. Many folks love those wines. Look at WW. He is a CA Cab fanatic. Has a damn nice collection of them to boot. That is his bag and more power to him. Look at Foodie searching the world for QPR wines for his Is Wine shop. Good for him. Same for a host of others here.
I've been around the wine game for well over twenty years. When people start painting with broad brushstrokes, they usually manage to get paint on themselves.......
'nuf said on the topic for me.
- Kcwhippet - 01-12-2003
Hear, hear!
- stevebody - 01-13-2003
I thought the fact of subjectivity was pretty much a universal understanding on a site like this. How can anything be objective that involves anyone's tastes vs. the next guy's? And I didn't "Rip" an entire region. I just suggested that there is plenty of time to tackle a subject as complicated as Bordeaux - and it's storied subtleties - after the person's tastes had shifted away from the big CA wines he mentioned in the first post. If you're a fan of those big CA wines, YOU WILL be disappointed by most Bordeaux. They ain't big and they ain't all that fruity and the French not only admit those two things, they revel in them. I tried to suggest a course ofg action to a particular question. You may not like the suggestion but it has worked for me and half a dozen other people I know.
- gobigred - 01-13-2003
stevebody,
i'll always have a soft spot for the iconoclasts among us. thanks for the advice and selections, i'll give them a try as I find them. actually I had 3 rhones last week (should I admit that?!) and went 3 for 3; liked them all.
By the way, I'm really enjoying this discourse. I think some of your points are confirmation of what I already suspected, that perhaps my pallete is not ready for Bordeaux, and that my tastes may never be ready. This is something that has been neglected in my (and i suspect other novices) wine education, whether from books by experts or by well-informed friends. Thus there is no point in my buying a $100 bottle of Bordeaux b/c I couldnt appreciate it and probably wouldnt like it anyways, at least right now. In the end thats probably just good business on the wine industry's part. Although I must say that the best wines I've tasted have always been expensive. (Of course then your getting into the idea of expectancy which is probably worthy of a whole post topic in itself.)
In regards to Tavel that you mentioned, I have yet to find one I like despite being hailed as great roses and I usually like roses. Can you suggest a specific one? Also, can you tell me any good American ones. I still cant figure out why there arent many US roses out there. Maybe b/c people see pink wine and think its going to be sweet? I had a really good one from ravenswood, but you can only get it at the winery, that figures!
signmefine: thanks for the advice on the store. actually one of our retailers here told me about that shop when I was looking for a specific sparkler (you think finding still wine here is hard, try finding some bubbly). I usually make it to dallas monthly to see friends and family and do as much wine shopping as I can afford while I'm there. But I'll be sure to check out that shop next time i'm down that way.
- stevebody - 01-13-2003
My fave Tavel has always been Chateau d'Aqueria (Spelling!). For American rose, my all time favorites are the Saintsbury rose of Pinot Noir and, OMIGOD, Jed Steele's Shooting Star Rose of Zinfandel. What a fabulous rose! Not a bit sweet but HUGE flavors and real Zin character, just presented in a lighter form. Great chilled and transcendent as an aperitif.
- Thomas - 01-14-2003
Rose from Sancerre is often astoundingly good.
Rose from Provence, also good (my favorite today is Chateau Routas).
And Bandol rose...