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+--- Thread: foray into france (/thread-18621.html)
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- gobigred - 01-06-2003
Hello,
This is my first post, I've been reading the messg board for awhile and have gotten some good tips. However, I'd appreciate some specific advice if anyone has the time.
I've been into wines for about 4-5 years now... two trips to sonoma/napa and I shudder to think of the amount of green I've spent on this "hobby". Up until now I have almost exclusively drank CA (or at least west coast) wines. This whole wine endeavor was so overwhelming at first I though I better take it region by region if I were to really understand wine. Now, I'm trying to expand and learn about french wines. I've had a few, mostly rhone, and havent been all that hot on them. I do drink the neuveau bouj ever year (usually love it) and have had a few villages bottles. Besides that only a few odd's and ends, the deboeufs, B&G's, ect. My favorite US varietals are CabSav and Zin. Specifically, right now I love the Renwood (all of them), Ravenswoods (never had a bad one), Ridge, Rancho Zabaco. My favorite cab is Cakebread when I can afford it and Dry Creek when I cant. I've read a few books and think I have moderate understanding of the french wine making regions, ect. I guess what I'm asking is, for an american pallete, should I start in Burgandy, Bordeaux,or Rhone regions? Also, are french wines as varied as the US wines. Does a CDP always taste like a CDP? Can you get good french wines ready to drink for $10-15? Is it even worth it with so many good american wines out there? Thanks in advance for any response.
P.S. I live in a terrible region for buying wine, I still can't find the Chateau Les Fiefs De Lagrange suggested in a earlier post. I see a lot of Jadot bottles out there, any good ones come to mind?
- Innkeeper - 01-06-2003
Hi Gobigred, and welcome to the Wine Board. Sounds like you may like to get into Southern French wines including the Rhone. CDPs are as varied as, say, California Cabs. French wines are infinitely more varied than American wine. Not only are more different grapes mass produced, but variations within regions is much greater than in American regions. CDRs are much more reasonalble than CDPs. They rarely have a bad year. Look for a CDR Villages in the $12-15 range for a great wine and a great value. Check out popswine.com for many choices in this and other great wines.
- wondersofwine - 01-06-2003
You might also try a Jadot Bourgogne rouge (red Burgundy) or similar from Joseph Drouhin or Bouchard. The Bordeaux wines would be closer to the cabernets you like (a blend of grape varieties with cabernet sauvignon part of the blend) but get pretty expensive in a hurry. A year like 1999 (ripe fruit and tannins a bit tamer than some years) produced good red burgundies at various price levels including some of the more generic labels. I prefer Northern Rhone wines to the Southern Rhone wines (different grape varieties used in the different regions) but many people are just the opposite. Languedoc is another area in France producing some tasty wines at reasonable cost.
- Thomas - 01-07-2003
If you have been drinking mainly California Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel you might find good Bordeaux too subtle. The main difference in style between the Old World and the New World is in subtlety (finesse) for the former and forward (attacking the palate) in the latter. This is a generalization, but in my expereince with people who drink mainly West Coast wine, it takes a while before they learn to expect nuance.
There are many European producers who emulate the West Coast and Australian style but then, you might as well stay with the American version--they taste relatively the same anyway.
I agree with the idea to start in southern France. Their wines usually are somewhere between the Old and New World styles. You can gradually move up (or is it back) to the Old World that way.
One of the joys of a great Bordeaux is its subtlety and elegance.
- JohnG - 01-07-2003
Like BigRed, I'm interested in expanding my experience with French wines. So far I've focused primarily on the wines of the Rhone region, and have really enjoyed them, but now would like to move into Bordeaux. Cab is not my favorite grape (I'm not wild about currant/cassis) but I have had cabs and cab blends that I've liked. Can anyone recommend some bottles that aren't too expensive (say, under $30) that would provide a good intro to Bordeaux?
Thanks!
- Innkeeper - 01-07-2003
The one that our OK friend can't find, Les Fiefs, is a good place to start. It is usually around $15 or $16.
- hotwine - 01-07-2003
Distribution of imported wines is maddeningly unpredictable across the country. If you live in a state that prohibits home delivery, the best you can do is visit as many retailers in your area as possible, and buy a few wines to try from a given region in your price range. And keep notes on your impressions of each, how it paired with particular foods, where/when you bought it, cost, etc. And do that on a regular basis, say once each month (or weekly, if you can). Set up your budget, buy within that limit, and explore that particular region as thoroughly as you can, given your resources. If you can buy a different wine each week for six months, you'll begin to get an idea of what to expect from that region's wines that are available in your market.
Regarding Bordeaux: there are many "lesser Bordeaux" imported into the States and distributed in a shotgun manner across the country, but you've got to look for them. Not every wineshop carries them, but virtually all of the larger shops do. Certainly, the larger the market, the larger the retailers, and thus the better your chances of finding bargain Bordeaux (and any other wines).
I usually visit four retailers each week. I might buy from only one, or perhaps from each of the four. Or maybe nothing at all that week. But I stay within my budget (usually) and have learned what's available in this market at any given time.
- joeyz6 - 01-07-2003
Also JohnG, if you don't like Cab, there is plenty of Bordeaux that is composed primarily of Merlot. I think these are usually the ones that come from the Right Bank appelations, such as St. Emilion. Maybe someone else could elaborate on that. Otherwise I'm sure your retailer could help you find one.
- hotwine - 01-07-2003
Right on, wines from St Emelion and Pomerol emphasize Merlot. That just means it's the dominant grape; a wine from those regions will still contain CS, but simply in lesser volume. Merlot usually overrides other components, esp. in St Emilion IMHO.
- gobigred - 01-07-2003
wow, thanks for the responses. I finally did find the Chateau Les Fiefs yesterday, but at $36 it wasnt a good monday wine for me. I went with a Cote du Rhone (parallele 45) and had it with a rustic pizza. I liked it and it was right up my wifes alley. At $12 I wasnt expecting too much, but it was like a CA wine to me. Not bad at all.
Regarding rhone wines, what exactly is meant by rhone-alone, rhone-style, rhone-varietal wines or wine lists (beyond the obvious)? Arent there about 20 different kinds of grapes grown in the rhone valley?
Also, could someone PLEASE give me a phonetic spelling of "mourvedre". My slight texan accent doesnt pair well with french.
Thanks again for the replies.
- Thomas - 01-07-2003
Rhone-alone? But as to Rhone-style, Rhone-like varietals, simply means that the wines in question are produced with some of the varieties known in the Rhone and they are in a style similar to Rhone wines, which often are chewy, raisin-like, peppery or some combination of the three.
Mourvedre: roughly pronounced, more-ved-reh--you have to swirl the d and the r together and make the eh sound between a short a and a short e.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 01-07-2003).]
- Innkeeper - 01-07-2003
Unless it was an older vintage, $36 for Les Fiefs is highway robbery. For information on American produced Rhone style wines look up www.rhoneranges.org
[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 01-07-2003).]
- gobigred - 01-08-2003
It was a '98, wine prices here are outrageous.
Rhone-alone is a term I'v seen used in newer, trendy french country resturants (most notably The Girl and the Fig in Sonoma) who have wine lists with only Rhone-style wines.
- Innkeeper - 01-08-2003
At www.popswine.com you can get the 2000 Les Fiefs for $14.08 by the case. Would definitely be worth the S&H.
- Thomas - 01-08-2003
We have a pretentious, over-priced restaurant called Rhone in NYCity. I suppose all the wines are Rhones, at least they were the last time went to tasting there.
- ShortWiner - 01-09-2003
A pretentious, overprice restaurant? HERE?! Shocking [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img]
- gobigred - 01-09-2003
Ive heard "Rhone" is a wonderful resturant, despite the pretense and price (water is overpriced in NYC). What did you think, Foodie?
- Thomas - 01-11-2003
Generally, when a restaurant menu is written poetically, I brace myself for disappointment--all those lovely adjectives and all those ingredients cannot be lived up to by a mere thing like dinner!
Seriously, Rhone was ok, considering the stream of trendy nonsense that goes on in NYCity. But I do not like to pay high prices for ok food, lots of noise and a wine list that I know is marked up far too high.
I seek restaurants that are less written about, less noisy, less trendy and as a result, often less costly. So many of these turn out to be gems, for the simplicity of the food and wine.
- signmefine - 01-12-2003
Hi, fellow Sooner,
I read your post about the price of wine in Norman and thought I'd share some info about a great store in Lawton. It is JP's Discount Liquor and Wine and is located on Cache Road near Sheridan. I haven't priced the Les Fiefs there, but I will on my next visit. Most bottles are a buck or two below the by-the-case price at popswine.com. The owner of the store is quite a connoisseur who holds wine tastings from time to time. It is a huge store that has a great inventory of both liquor and wine. You might check it out if you're in for a short road trip south....
- stevebody - 01-12-2003
God Help Me but I'm gonna says this anyway: Don't waste your time, not to mention money, on Bordeaux. I've been a wine steward and buyer for ten years and have tasted thousands of wines and am told I have a major-league palate and I can tell you that, if you like the wines you mentioned, Bordeaux will leave you cold and poorer. This oft-stated "subtlety" of Bordeaux is certainly there but the great, profound subtlety lies in wines that are so dear and so pricey that us mere working joes will never even get to taste them, let alone own a bunch for comparison. They're very nice wines, to a fault, but the "subtlety" is composed of part French tastes, part their slavish devotion to the concept of terroir above all else, part of a habit of early harvesting, a big part of their desire to leave the rough edges to be worked out by cellaring (knowing full well that wines that score badly in initial tastings can always be cast as "needing time" and therefore maintain their market value), and mainly to our genuflection to their every bottling. If you enjoy bigger, more assertive wines, try the Rhone Village wines: Gigondas, Valreas, Tavel, CdP, etc. Gigondas, especially, has a great group of producers who don't believe in strangling the life out of those wonderful Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvedre grapes for the sake of French pride. Domaine Les Palliers, owner by the Bruniers of Vieux Telegraphe and American wine importer Kermit Lynch, will knock you flat. Ditto the Perrin, Sainte Cosme, and Brusset's Le Haut and Le Grade Montmirail wines. GREAT stuff, a little on the wild side, but exciting and alive in a way the stodgy billionaires in Bordeaux never were. The South, in general, has a lot of great, obscure wineries now. Chateau Lavabre, Domaine des Armouriers, and a ton of others are emerging. Try a few. They're inexpensive and fun and different. They are not, however, like your Cal favorites. They're still French and still somewhat austere by comparison with the same varietals grown anywhere else. Example: try the 100% Grenache Domaine de la Janasse "Le Chaupin" CdP in an A-B tasting with Australia's Yalumba Bush Vine Grenache. I'm betting you'll choose the Yalumba.
The world of wine is too freakin' big and interesting right now to get hung up on France just because you always heard they make the best wine. I'd debate that with anyone, anytime. Try Spain, home of major obscure gems. Try Italy, the largest wine-producing country in the world. Try Australia, where truly great wines are literally bursting onto the market. Try California and Washington, Carefully. France ain't going anywhere. Tackle it at your leisure, when your tastes change.
One more thing: Watch how many people get pissed off at this response. That'll give you some idea of how shaky Bordeaux lovers are about their jones for these things. I'll probably be called uneducated, unsophisticated, and worse by the Bordeaux weenies who read this. I wear that as a badge of honor, these days. As Edward Bennet Williams said, when told he'd made Nixon's Enemies List: "A man can expect no higher honor".