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+--- Thread: Judging Young Cabs (/thread-17846.html)
- WinoNan - 11-10-2000
I'd be curious to know what some of you use as a gauge for knowing whether or not a young cab will result in a good cab 5-10 years down the line.
If it's drinkable now, do you feel it will be better in 3-5 years? Longer? Or will it even go that long?
- Bucko - 11-10-2000
It is a crap shoot at best. Most CA Cabs improve for 3-5 years, better ones to 10, but I have started drinking all of mine by 10 because they never seen to go anywhere but down after that, with rare exceptions.
Bucko
- Thomas - 11-11-2000
Has it come to this? Someone says Cabernet Savignon and immediately we think of California. What about the rest of the CB-- producing countries and regions?
- winoweenie - 11-11-2000
Foodster, Have you had a chance to see last months Speculator? winoweenie
- WinoNan - 11-11-2000
Hey people -- you aren't answering the question!??! (outside of Bucko)
Curious minds want to know!
- Drew - 11-12-2000
Hey, WinoNan, Bucko answered the question!...
aside from his answer and winery reputation for producing long aging cabs, I think that's about it.
Drew
- Thomas - 11-12-2000
Hey WW, haven't read it--normally do not--but will look it up. I suppose it has something to do with CS wines.
Yes, Bucko answered the question, as it relates to California CS. Unfortunately, in the rest of the world, one must first check the vintage and then check the producer to even try to figure out how long a CS--or any wine--is apt to last.
I particularly wish producers would release wines when they are at their peak so I am not left to play the guessing game, and to finance their operations by holding their inventory. But that is the system!
- Bucko - 11-12-2000
The question was Cab, not Bordeaux. I answered as best as I could with that info. Chile makes Cabs, but none ageworthy that I have tried. I don't care for OZ wines due to the heavy oak in most. That doesn't leave much but CA.
I meant to punch the ticket but I got confused........ I demand a repost.
Sheezzzzzzz
Bucko
- WinoNan - 11-12-2000
O.K. Let me try again.
What I'm asking is ... when you're tasting wine, it's common for young cabs to be pretty harsh when first bottled, so what criteria do you use to decide if one is worth buying for storing?
In most cases, I can pretty much tell which ones will be good down the road, but I was curious to hear from others on how they make this decision.
I'm not asking how long a particular cab will cellar -- I've done enough tasting that I can usually make a pretty good guesstimate of that.
Got it? Good! Love to hear from you.
- mrdutton - 11-12-2000
Having never had the chance, yet, to properly cellar a wine for a long period of time (more than a year)............. I'll give it a shot anyway.
Hints of good fruit on the nose and on the tip of tongue but then slightly overpowered by a strong sensation of tannin in the mouth (astringency) might indicate a wine that is closed and is waiting for further development.
Cellar the wine properly and have enough on hand to do additional tastings. When your palate tells you that there is still some very good fruit on the nose and the tongue, decent acid and mouth-feel and a fine balance with the tannin and a nice long finish, then the wine is at its peak.
Other than that, you must have some knowledge of the source, the winemaker, the vintage and the character of the vineyard.
By that, I mean have they been producing very fine wines from very good vintages and good wines from good vintages for a long time? If the answer is yes, then you've found a source of wine to add to your list for cellaring.
Trust me....... If I am the least bit off-base here, many of our more experienced enophiles will let us both know!
But I think I am just giving you the long answer to the short answers you've already received.
It is a crap shoot.......... sometime you roll sevens, other times you roll snake-eyes.
- Bucko - 11-13-2000
I still say it is a crap shoot, and I have been drinking CA Cabs since the 1974 vintage. Go back and look at Parker and WS extolling the virtues of the 1985 CA Cab vintage -- it has fallen apart, while the 84 and 86 are still drinkable. 89 was trashed, yet many wines are drinking well now. 88 was rated higher than 89, yet the wines are almost undrinkable. Dunn has been praised, yet the tannins are far outlasting the fruit IMHO.
If a wine does not have a sense of balance when it is young, it does not mysteriously appear in the bottle. I buy a wine with balance and complexity, plain and simple, not by the showy numbers. I rarely get disappointed these days - I've learned to trust my own palate.
Bucko
[This message has been edited by Bucko (edited 11-12-2000).]
- winoweenie - 11-13-2000
WinoNan, All of the answers have merit, but Bucko`s IMHO hits the head of the nail. If you`ll read the beginning of the 92 cab thread, yhe reason I cellared this vintage was the extremely good balance most of the wines had. Balance can be femine with soft, supple fruit, a touch of acid and rounded tannins, or it can be bold, brawney fruit with high acids and tannins that make you pucker up. The 92 Corison was the former and the Dunn Howell Myn the latter. Both wines are gorgeous but in different ways. The 94 and 97 vintages are IMHO outstanding vintages for this reason. Too much fruit,low acid, flabby tannins, a fruit-bomb that explodes for a moment. Little fruit, low-acid, high tannins, the sucker never becomes drinkable. Hope this gives you some insight. winoweenie
- Thomas - 11-13-2000
One reason I do not lay down much wine is that it is simply a crap shoot. The other reason is even more simple: I subscribe to the here and now. A Mack truck can end what might have been a long life, and I do not want to have a lot of good wine laying down that I never got to taste. ...
I'll go with a wine because I like what I taste at the moment; deciding on its balance is critical. I never even think anymore about the length of its future beyond a year or so. Like Bucko, got burned by that habit far too often.
As I posted earlier, I'd rather the winery decide when the wine is at its peak and pay for its own inventory storage. If the winery can sell it all on futures, so be it; I'll buy something else.
Re, Cabernet Sauvignon: the reason it is not the sole grape in Bordeaux is because of its rather harsh qualities that take too long to settle down. Drink Whitehall Lane CS and you will see how harsh it can be when young, and how it is too early when they release it; but they have us inventory keepers out there, so why not release it early?
- WinoNan - 11-13-2000
Thank you!! Now I'm reading the responses I was looking for.
Some sort of balance to start with ... and complexity. That's pretty much what I've been using as criteria, but was seeking validation.
My partner and I have a wine site on which we offer our tasting notes on No. California wines. We've been hesitant to list many cabs because they're so harsh when they're young and ... as you say ... a crap shoot as to whether they'll last. We've offered our suggestions on a few of them but ... who really knows?
Guess we shouldn't worry. How many are going to remember 5-10 years down the road exactly why they purchased that particular wine? [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
Thanks again for your input. Oh and I agree with Foodie. Wouldn't it be nice if the wineries helped us out in this matter?
Have a great wine day!
WinoNan
- mrdutton - 11-13-2000
But the wineries will help, at least those I've contacted have helped.
Every winery I've e-mailed has been good about sending me a reply with an answer to my question. That includes questions such as, "when will your wine really be ready to drink?".
- winoweenie - 11-13-2000
Foodie and Bucko, Naturally there`s a crap-shoot when you lay a wine down, but the rewards are so great that I for one started taking them with the 74 vintage. Cain`t remember being really dissapointed in a wine from a winery that is on my A list and very few from the B. The rewards of a Caymus , Mayacamus, Diamond Creek, Ch. Montelena, BV George, Stags Leap etc certainly out-weigh the dissapointments. Again, this is always predicated on storage. If storage is problamatic then I agree with Foodie. Look for the final tasting notes on the 92`s. The 2 Whitehall Lanes will be against some stiff stuff, and the last Morisoli I tasted 2 years Ago was approaching sensational. winoweenie
- Innkeeper - 11-18-2000
Dan Berger, a sometimes contributor to this board, had an excellent article in his newsletter this week (Dan Berger's Vintage Experiance, Vol V, Issue 39, Nov 16, '00). Title "Cascading Praise" it is primarily about Washington State wine, and secondily about aging wine. The point he makes is that acid is the key to aging highly tannic wine. Without it, forget it. He maintains that cool weather growing of the big reds is the key to producing acid. He thinks the Washington folks have the edge on this, but cool microclimates in California would have the same advantage.
Have heard over the years all sorts of theories about what happens during aging. The prevailing current thought seems to be that the "other stuff" in the wine work on the tannin in a sort of biologic osmosis. The problem with this is sediment. Sediment is the byproduct of a chemical reaction. The chemical in wine that can produce such a reaction is acid. So, the key to aging California Cabs is know that they were vintified "big" and have the acid to handle the bigness.