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+--- Thread: Super Tuscans? (/thread-17464.html)
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- winoweenie - 02-09-2003
SB, you just don't get it do you? I had to do my 3 miles and listen to Diana Kralls' "All for You " before making this post. There's no doubt you have a modicum of wine knowledge (not quite the reservoir you think)and can make some very helpful and insightful posts on many threads on the board. Big Bob P. hasn't graced us with his presence yet so we have no absolute divine Guru. You could do a great deal for your image by using those 4 magic letters. "IMHO". Try it when making an acerbic observation. You'll be amazed how much more positive input you'll receive. Drew'll like it, Foodie'll like it, Mikey'll like it! Keep smiling.WW [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
- tandkvd - 02-09-2003
Hey Quijote, how much more do you know about Super Tuscans now than when you posted your question 5 days ago. I'm still confused. Us green hornes will just have to try by trial and eror to see what we like. I'm finding a lot of info on differant wines, and right now it's like finding your way thru a forest, with all the different selections out there. But I am enjoing the trek thru the forest.
But I tip my hat to you. Only 6 post and you have started an argument. Better watch out or you will be labled a trouble maker!
[This message has been edited by tandkvd (edited 02-09-2003).]
- quijote - 02-09-2003
Thanks for your feedback.... I've been having a lot of fun with wine exploration, and it seems that--little by little--things fall into place. When I was trying the riesling, I picked up all sorts of yellow fruits and honey, but there was one flavor I couldn't quite figure. Finally, after about 20 minutes, I sipped and it came to me--savory apples! I'm looking forward to more epiphanies as the years roll by....
- quijote - 02-09-2003
Yes, I have this habit of stirring up controversy. I was going to ask about "big reds," too, but decided to wait until the pixels cooled a bit....
I'm still a little cloudy on Super Tuscans--I understand the points of view on the term, but I don't know enough about the wine industry in general to be make hard-core sense of the ideas expressed. I think I'll have to drink STs, keep reading, and eventually make sense of it all....
- Thomas - 02-09-2003
At the risk of starting another firestorm, let me try to explain the so-called Super Tuscan.
It really is a marketing term and not a wine descriptor, but it does refer to a certain kind of wine. In Tuscany, they refer to the wine as an "international style," which is key to why we had that amazingly vitriolic conversation earlier.
The "international style" referred to is not so much grape varieties, although that is an important ingredient in the determination of whether a Super Tuscan or not, but in winemaking style--the Supers generally are big, powerful, extracted wines, often with a great deal of oak integration.
Importantly, products like the Supers are produced elsewhere in Italy, but the shift from local identity to "international style" I believe started in Tuscany.
Hope that helps.
- quijote - 02-09-2003
That does help, foodie. So ST doesn't specifically refer to varietals as such, but more to how they are handled; the style, as you say.
A lingering question, and perhaps another fire-starter, is: To what extent are Super Tuscans made in Tuscany? Or are they really more of a global product now?
- Thomas - 02-10-2003
Well, if it is a Super Tuscan it is produced in Tuscany.
The style is international, which is what I meant a long time ago when I talked about it betraying place. Last year I tasted wines in Verona, Italy that were produced by one of the winemakers at Bolla. As far as I was concerned, with my eyes closed, and if I was not in Italy, I would have guessed the wines were either Californian or Australian (with Chile in thrid place).
When I asked the winemaker why Bolla produced wines that do not reflect Valpolicella, which is where they were produced, he responded: "It's the international style; it's what Americans want."
- stevebody - 02-10-2003
Au contraire, I don't think I have any sort of "reservoir" of wine knowledge. The more I deal with wine, the more I realize I have to learn. That, though, was not the substance of this weird debate. That subject was attitudes, with which I am a LOT more familiar. Like the origins of the word "Zinfandel" and why wine gives some people headaches, the question of what actually constitutes a "Super-Tuscan" seems to get five different answers for every five people polled. It was, probably, someone's handy little catch-all term that caught on and joined the vernacular, in the normal way our version of English evolves. WHATEVER, I never questioned Foodie's knowledge of wine. It's probably greater than mine and that probability causes me no ego loss. I simply object to larding anyone down with prejudices, however well founded they may be. At very least, steering someone away from that wonderful thrill of discovery that is what drives most of our wine passion seems almost cruel. IMHO (Better?) the NOVICE board should be about providing signposts for that voyage of discovery, not roadblocks. Like I said before, I see people every single day who have swallowed whole some friend or colleague's nutbag slant on Spanish, South African, Bordeaux, fruitbomb, or dessert wines and have arbitrarily stricken them from their list of "must trys". Let these guys roam, okay? They'll find stuff they hate and stuff they adore, but THEY'LL find them. It will be THEIR accomplishment. It will MEAN MORE to them in the long run. If someone asks what we think about the wines, let 'er rip. Otherwise, kid gloves, okay?
- stevebody - 02-10-2003
Au contraire, I don't think I have any sort of "reservoir" of wine knowledge. The more I deal with wine, the more I realize I have to learn. That, though, was not the substance of this weird debate. That subject was attitudes, with which I am a LOT more familiar. Like the origins of the word "Zinfandel" and why wine gives some people headaches, the question of what actually constitutes a "Super-Tuscan" seems to get five different answers for every five people polled. It was, probably, someone's handy little catch-all term that caught on and joined the vernacular, in the normal way our version of English evolves. WHATEVER, I never questioned Foodie's knowledge of wine. It's probably greater than mine and that probability causes me no ego loss. I simply object to larding anyone down with prejudices, however well founded they may be. At very least, steering someone away from that wonderful thrill of discovery that is what drives most of our wine passion seems almost cruel. IMHO (Better?) the NOVICE board should be about providing signposts for that voyage of discovery, not roadblocks. Like I said before, I see people every single day who have swallowed whole some friend or colleague's nutbag slant on Spanish, South African, Bordeaux, fruitbomb, or dessert wines and have arbitrarily stricken them from their list of "must trys". Let these guys roam, okay? They'll find stuff they hate and stuff they adore, but THEY'LL find them. It will be THEIR accomplishment. It will MEAN MORE to them in the long run. If someone asks what we think about the wines, let 'er rip. Otherwise, kid gloves, okay?
- winoweenie - 02-10-2003
You Betcha' Red Rider,,,,,,,,,,,,Much Better!!!!!!!!!! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]WW
- Glass_A_Day - 02-11-2003
I tend to agree with Steve. Many many many times I heard someones opinion before trying a certain wine or type of wine, which I took as fact. I was then deprived of many wines that I ended up liking very much until later. I see your point Steve. Another thing to consider is this. Most beginners have an International pallet. It takes years of enjoying wine before many of us can truely appreciate the sublties and complexities of say, a great Burgandy for example. We start off loveing the big overblown cabs, fruit bombs, overoaked chards, and "international Style" wines mentioned in this thread. All that being said, a beginner may tend to lean toward a Super Tuscan in a blind tasting. Of course, all of this....IMHO. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]