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+--- Thread: Super Tuscans? (/thread-17464.html)
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- quijote - 02-04-2003
Hi! As I read about wine I keep running into the phrase "Super Tuscans." What are these? Is Sangiovese included in this category? Why are they called Super Tuscans?
Thanks.
- Thomas - 02-04-2003
Super Tuscan refers to a style of wine (at high prices) that may or may not include Sangiovese, but more often than not includes Cabernet Sauvignon and other possibilities for blending. They also are heavily extracted wines, often over-oaked and can be produced in California, Australia, Chile or anywhere on the planet, but happen to have been produced in Tuscany.
- tear wah - 02-04-2003
Super Tuscan as wines from Tuscany, Italy that are made outside of the D.O.C. regulations for that area. In some cases, the wines are made from grapes that are not permitted for a certain wine (Cabernet Sauvignon is a common culprit), or the alcohol is too high, or the aging is not done to the approved standards of the appellations in Tuscany. These wines, now referred to as "I.G.T." wines (Indicazione Geografica Tipica) are technically the lowest on the Italian wine quality hierarchy, but are actually among the most exciting wines being made in Italy. Some have Sangiovese (Tignanello, Paretaio, etc.), some are Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot (Masseto or Sassicaia) and many are very expensive. many Italian traditionalists are lamenting the "loss of Italian identity" in these bold new "internationally styled" wines, but they're certainly worth a try for when you want to splurge. Just look for the words "I.G.T. Toscana" on the label, and you are drinking a "Super-Tuscan!
- wondersofwine - 02-05-2003
Welcome to the board quijote and tear wah.
Come back often. I was able to have a small taste of Sassicaia at a wine tasting and thought it wonderful (though way beyond my budget). I hope the traditional Italian wines continue to hold their own as well. I've even heard a Banfi representative refer to "baby Super Tuscans" which is an oxymoron. How can it be a baby anything and super (powerful, aggressive, whatever)?
- ShortWiner - 02-05-2003
As I understand it, not all IGTs are what you'd call Super Tuscans. IGT is just the lowest label on the official totem pole, below DOC and DOCG. Therefore there are many IGTs that are made in fairly typical or traditional Italian ways and with traditional grapes--these are not Super Tuscans, though many of them are quite good. Super Tuscans are classed as IGT because that's the only bin they fit in. I for one have never been too interested in Super Tuscans, but I've and plenty of good IGT wines. Somebody correct me if I've got this wrong.
[This message has been edited by ShortWiner (edited 02-05-2003).]
- Innkeeper - 02-05-2003
You got it right bro. Super Tuscans are for the rich (I was going to say heavy in pocket and light in the head, but many of the STs are excellent wines). Other IGTs are for the rest of us to discover and enjoy.
- Thomas - 02-05-2003
tear wah, I consider your comment that Super Tuscans, "are actually among the most exciting wines being made in Italy" a matter of opinion.
In my opinion, Super Tuscans are among the most confusing, if not the least interesting, of wines produced in Italy. I form that opinion because, as I said, these styles of wines can be produced anywhere in the world--they say little about identity. Yep, I am one of those who laments the loss of local identity, in any country. I cannot think of anything more boring in wine than the concept of consistency from coast-to-coast or nation-to-nation.
Yes shortwiner, IGT refers to those wines that do not conform to DOC regs but may be tipical to the region.
- tear wah - 02-05-2003
Foodie,
I said they are AMONG the most exciting wines being made in Tuscany, NOT THE MOST EXCITING. I, like you am traditonalist, preferring the wines of the Veneto and Piemonte, as they are produced nowhere else in the world. Most Bordeaux varietal based Super Tuscans bore me and cot way too much for me to drink them (unless someone else is buying)!!!
I.G.T. wines from Tuscany are Super Tuscans, not I.G.T. wines from everywhere. If I led some to believe or if I stated otherwise, I stand corr.ected
- Thomas - 02-06-2003
I know you said they are AMONG the Most, et al; that's what I quoted. I still disagree with that statement--to me, they are among the least exciting...
- stevebody - 02-07-2003
The spectre of someone casting a whole class of wines in an unflattering light just because they violate your sense of decorum or tradition is really sad, not to mention lame. I say this with requisite gravity, as I enjoy the give and take on this site but this tired, overwrought business of running down Super-Tuscans just because they aren't the wines that have been made in Tuscany since time immemorial - or, even sadder, because they employ "French Grapes"(?) - is the same sort of thing as the middle-aged putzes in the 1950s who screamed bloody murder because those damned kids quit buying Frank Sinatra and Hugo Winterhalter records. Time marches on and I doubt that Roberto Guldener, Angelo Gaja, Ricardo Cotarella, et al are sitting up nights worrying about what we think of the way they're "ruining" Italian winemaking. The simple fact is that the Italians have a serious knack for growing and bottling the French varietals and the wines that result are often more flavorful, complex, and interesting than the French or American efforts with the same grapes. The handle "Super Tuscan" is applies to wines that simply combine Sangiovese, most often, with one of the French grapes or sometimes even to wines that contain - Gasp!! - no freakin' Italian grapes at all!! Horrors!! Anyone who can drink a bottle of the La Carraia Fobbiano, Falesco Montiano, Domenico Clerico Arte, Monsanto Tincsul, or Tua Rita Guisti di Notre and not realize that they've tied into a hellacious fine bottle of vino is best left to stew in their own Fogey-ish, pole-up-the-butt inertia. Don't like those wines? Wonderful! More for the rest of us. At very least, if you're clinging to the tattered vestiges of 70s-style wine snobbery, have the good graces not to wave it like a flag, as though you represented a constituency. These wines are here to stay and probably to proliferate and no amount of gassin' and crabbin' is going to change that. Let the newcomers to the many varieties of Italian (and every other country's) damned wines make up their own minds about the wines, okay? Don't saddle them with your petty prejudices. Jeez... And, yeah, I am perfectly aware of how peremptory I come off here. I sell wine all day and every 40th customer or so is one of those hidebound ninnies, to whom I have to be civil. No such quarter here. Here be unfiltered discourse, plain talk, and straight shootin'. (sound of loud raspberry)
- Kcwhippet - 02-07-2003
If Roberto Guldener, Angelo Gaja, Ricardo Cotarella, et al aren't sitting up nights worrying about what we think of the way they're "ruining" Italian winemaking why are you?
- Thomas - 02-07-2003
Stevebody, try thinking before you spout off. The germ of my thoughts on the matter is quite simple, which is why I rarely need a long diatribe to write it out. Since I do not know you and you do not know me I choose not to defend my position about the so-called "snobbism" you cast upon me. So open up your favorite plonk and consider this next comment re, (that means regarding) why I dislike Super Tuscans:
"I cannot think of anything more boring in wine than the concept of consistency from coast-to-coast or nation-to-nation."
Got it? Now, if you can't repsond like a thinking adult instead of name-calling adolsecent, go to another Web site.
Sorry all, I don't like know-it-alls calling me names, even if I have no idea who these yahoos are!
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-07-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 02-07-2003
Stevebody,
By the following statement "The handle "Super Tuscan" is applies to wines that simply combine Sangiovese, most often, with one of the French grapes " do you mean to imply Erik Banti is a producer of Super Tuscans? We sell a major portion of his line, and two of the most popular in our shop are his Morellino di Scansano and his Carato. Both are Sangiovese and Grenache. We retail the first for $8.99 and the second for $10.99, and that's a far cry from the prices the Super Tuscans I've seen on the market seem to be commanding.
- stevebody - 02-07-2003
Since you haven't become, Foodie, as far as I know, the arbiter of All Things Internet, I assume my options here still include responding to people as well as slinking off, properly chastened, and finding another website. And that stuff about the "germ of my thought" is as ingenuous as you seem to feel I'm rude. The tack of your remarks was evident in the first exchange on this topic, in which you described the wines in a tidy bag as "heavily extracted, over-oaked, that can be produced anywhere in the world". You mentioned, conveniently, the two culprits that everybody slags as prime purveyors of the dreaded "fruit bombs", CA and Australia. In the second exchange, the view was even clearer:
"In my opinion, Super Tuscans are among the most confusing, if not the least interesting, of wines produced in Italy. I form that opinion because, as I said, these styles of wines can be produced anywhere in the world--they say little about identity. Yep, I am one of those who laments the loss of local identity, in any country. I cannot think of anything more boring in wine than the concept of consistency from coast-to-coast or nation-to-nation."
I submit that, if you can taste any of the better Supers and NOT receive mountains of information about the climate, soil, minerals, vegetation and air quality of the growing area, jeez, look to your taste buds instead of the wines. They contain just exactly the same terroir characteristics as the indigenous varietals and trad wines, just applied to a different framework. And, NO, they cannot be produced "anywhere in the world". The "Tuscan" part of the label is applied because of the singular character of the wines and of Tuscany. The mere fact that the same grapes are used in CA, WA, Australia, France, and Spain hardly means all the wines will be alike. If you can't grasp that, well, I'm sorry. And, since I didn't invent the term "Super Tuscan" and it's not owned, as far as I know, by any growers' consortium, as CA Meritage supposedly is, it applies to any wine containing the requisite grapes, produced in Tuscany. The term is even misapplied to wines made elsewhere, if they follow a similar formula and no one has died of this slip-up yet. Banti makes Supers? Ask him. I'd sell his wines under the same criteria as the Summus, Campaccio, et al. Not all of the Supers are prohibitively expensive anyway.
I am sometimes, as people have described me on this site, an agitator. So what? If calling attention to obvious bias is agitating, fine with me. I can live with the label. We've adopted this frightening notion in modern America that we should be able to spout off at will and that no one should ever dare to say, "Wait, that's ridiculous". Well, someone asked a legit question on a type of wine and got TWO thinly-velied diatribes from you. You get two back. Democracy in action.
- Thomas - 02-07-2003
As I have said after your first agitative post on this site, you can have all the opinions in the world--no problem here. But when you stoop to name-calling you betray discourse, not to mention that you prove closed minded.
And if I remember correctly, your very first post on this site was a blanket knock of certain winemaking in the Western part of the U.S. Should I defer to your claim to the arbiter of taste in that part of the world?
Let's agree to stop this insane thread and talk about wine, not one another.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-07-2003).]
- winoweenie - 02-07-2003
GOOD-GRAVYSTAINS FELLERS..... I CAN'T LEAVE YOUSE ALONE 2 MINUETS WIFOUT A VERBAL SLUG-FEST. SB you do come on a little heavy-handed whenced broaching subjects. I can assure you there are extremely savvy wine people here and this site was founded by a cat who'd probably have torn you a new one by now, Jerry Mead who forgot more about wine than most people will ever learn. I've found some of your arguments compelling, insightful and knowledgable. Foodie is rite on when he says our mission is to critique wine and not one another. Tho I read lots of posts that I feel are posted by a neophite or numb-skull, I try to handle most replies with a touch of humor. I know that laughter makes learning easier than a hammer over the noggin. You have lots of knowledge that should be shared, but, so does Foodie, Roberto, Hotwine,Drew, IK, WOW, KC and many other of the regulars here. I know I'll NEVER change Robertos mind on the wine industry, nor he change mine but amazingly we've agreed to agree and have become friends. Hate posting this long a post but put up the boxing gloves, put on a smile, open a bottle of your favorite, and kick back. We'uns be Okie-Dokie. WW
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 02-08-2003).]
- stevebody - 02-09-2003
If we're to hold to the principle that we talk about "the wine and not each other", then the "each other" that we agree to treat civilly should be the entire culture of wine, which we all sorta enjoy, else why would we be here? I submit that the requirement for courtesy includes the winemakers, the retailers, and the art of winemaking. (Distributors are fair game.) [LOL. I think...] I took offense to two slaps at an entire genre of winemaking and, by extension, the people involved, just as I did when someone in another topic called for Cotarella's deportation to Australia. The person who posted this query wanted an answer to a simple question: What are Super-Tuscans? Tell the guy and let that person form their own opinions of the wines. If he had said, "What is your opinion of Super-Tuscan wines?", different story and different expectations. Then, let it fly. I object and will continue to object to having a wine neophyte hamstrung right out of the chute by anyone's opinions about any class of wines. People new to wine are too impressionable, as I see every day at work, saying they heard from their wine-savvy friend that all Spanish wines are crap, for one example. Civil discourse ain't just the absence of name-calling. It's also the application of even-handedness and the realization that your own views didn't come from on high on a stone tablet. As for my own supposed lambasting of WA wines, it wasn't posted on the NOVICE site, was it? It was out there where the feral dogs of Excessive Wine Knowledge lie. I took my lumps over that post and managed not to whine about it. If someone thinks I'm an idiot, they can say that. My skin isn't that freakin' thin. The cost of entertaining firm opinions is to occasionally be called on them. I have nothing more to say on this but will gladly answer if anyone wants to object to anything said here.
- Kcwhippet - 02-09-2003
"...as I see every day at work..."
So, where is it that you work?
- Thomas - 02-09-2003
It is obvious you can't seem to let it go. I can, and have...
- stevebody - 02-09-2003
KC,
I slave in the wine mines at Esquin Wine Merchants, WA's largest retail wine shop, in Sea-patch. Also write about wine for a couple of newspapers back East (was a newspaper arts reviewer and coulmnist, in a previous life) and consult on restaurant wine lists for my own food management company and for about a dozen restaurants here in the Seattle area. That much contact with distributors' reps and our surprisingly large crop of out-and-out wine snots here in the area has left me right prickly about name-calling vis-a-vis typrs, regions, or countries of wine. I probably came down too hard on Foodie and will probably have to do his yard work in my next life. Getting older's a bitch...