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+--- Thread: Detecting oak taste test (/thread-16647.html)
- Georgie - 05-04-2003
There are often opinions voiced about the flavor of oak in wine. Since I really don't know what oak tastes like I took Robin Garr's "Detecting Oak" taste test as found on The Wine Lover's page. http://www.wineloverspage.com/ There was certainly a huge difference in taste between the two chardonnays by the same maker. My conclusion was that I preferred the non-oaky taste to the oaky taste. For you other novices out there, this might be a good little tasting experience for you to try.
[This message has been edited by Georgie (edited 05-04-2003).]
- Innkeeper - 05-04-2003
Rah, rah, cheer, cheer; another convert found here.
- Georgie - 05-04-2003
Yes, IK, I knew you'd be proud of me. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
- winecollector - 05-04-2003
Long live oak! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
- wondersofwine - 05-05-2003
It does live long--in trees!
- Menua - 05-06-2003
Aye! The wines that I really didn't care much for were the ones that you could pour on the ground and have a sapling pop up next spring...
I've restricted myself to inexpensive Bordeaux (Mouton Cadet) and Languedoc (Fortant) reds and whites to get away fom the oak. Any thoughts on these?
I've tried some inexpensive Italian stuff (forget the names right off) and found that apparently trees grow in Italy, too. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img] Any recommened inexpensive Italian reds sans oak?
Most of the Australian reda (Yellow Tail, Lindemans, Rosemont Diamond Label, etc) have tasteed very much...err, woody. What's up with New World and oak, huh?
I don't touch anything from the US anymore, except for maybe some from Va; I tend to avoid California like the plague. O what am I gonna do when I move to LA? [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/confused.gif[/img]
Taking a brave step I tried some inexpensive (notice a trend here? [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img] ) Chilean wine - Concha y Torro Xplorador Cab. Sauv. - cheesy name and New World, so I figured it would be sawdust soaked. I was pleasantly surprised to see little oak. If it was there, it was (refreshingly) drowned out by the fruit.
[This message has been edited by Menua (edited 05-06-2003).]
- Georgie - 05-06-2003
Question for IK: For this oak detecting test of Robin Garr's she chose the Columbia Crest Grand Estates Chardonnay as the "oaky" tasting wine in the comparison. In an old post, "Best Chard under $15," IK wrote the following about that wine: "Columbia Crest, Grand Estate, Chardonnay. It is very light on the oaky doaky." I need some clarification, please. Is it that compared to other wines even this supposedly oaky wine has a light oak flavor? As Rudy in my class says to me at least five times a day, "I'm confused."
- Innkeeper - 05-06-2003
Don't think Robin meant to imply that one was oaky and the other not. His point was that the reserve was noticibly oakier. In Canada they can still compare Unwooded Banrock Station Chardonnay with the regualar one, but they don't sell the unwooded one here anymore. Yalumba, also from Australia makes both kinds and are availabe in the U.S.
- Bucko - 05-06-2003
You ARE confused -- Robin is a he. You related to Lorena Bobbitt?
Oak is VERY subjective. People here call me an oakaphobe, yet my oak sensitive tasting group calls me an oak whore?!?!?!?
You have to please yourself. Maybe those examples by Garr were not the best examples -- I haven't tried them so I hate to cast stones (unless WW is in the picture). Take a Sancerre (a Sauvignon Blanc from the Loire) and compare it to a 2001 Kenwood, Sauvignon Blanc, Reserve, Sonoma County, California. You'll learn the effect of vanilla on wine. Just like a spice in cooking, it can be overdone.
- Georgie - 05-07-2003
Thanks, guys...(you are GUYS aren't you?) When I attached that feminine pronoun to Robin Garr, it crossed my mind that the name Robin could be male. Given a fifty-fifty chance, I always choose the wrong one. Story of my life. My apologies to MR. Garr. I'll try those other wines to compare. I need somebody to say, "Here, this has a lot of oak, and this one doesn't." Lorena Bobbitt, indeed!
- Drew - 05-07-2003
I'm fairly oak tolerant to the point that the wine's in balance to all it's components, after that I don't enjoy the oak dominants. Now, on occassion, like big Bob P., I do enjoy a big, powerful, overblown, ass kicken', Aussie shiraz, always without food (cause they just don't pair well). It must be my S&M side comming out. I do agree with WW that many wines from good producers that start off strutting their oak will, with age, come together and play nicely. On the flip side I've had others, where in time, the fruit fades leaving the oak to rule alone, which is very unpleasant to drink. Also, styles change from vintage to vintage as producers answer the taste calls of the masses or heed their inner artsy drive to "create a masterpiece". I think it's hard to classify producers in the oak, no oak category until you taste but do agree that most seem to lean towards the oak.
Drew
- Thomas - 05-07-2003
Drew, I was with you until your last point that "most" lean toward oak. In my experience as wine buyer for the retail shop I taste scores of products (tough job!), and I believe the balanced wine and the subdued oak style is in the majority over the out-of-balance-over-oaked style. The weird thing, however, is that the latter often commands more money than the former, which says more about the power of writers and magazines (RP, WSpect, et al) than it does about people's individual power to learn and to discern.
- JohnG - 05-07-2003
It seems to me that most of the adverse reaction to oakiness applies to whites rather than reds. It's the chardonnays and sb's that get criticized for being overly oaky, not the cabs, chiantis, etc.
If that's true, is it because oak is integrated more easily (better balanced with fruit, tannins, etc)in reds, which, at least to me, are heartier and more complex? (that is, there is so much going on in a red wine that the oak is less noticeable). In contrast, oak may be a bigger problem for whites because they are more delicate (dare I say sissy?)and so the fruit is more easily disturbed by a hunk of wood?
Or is it a matter of winemaking style and fashion -- oakiness is desired (by some) in white wine, but less so in red wine?
- Innkeeper - 05-07-2003
Agreed with you until recently John. Lately, however, have been encountering overoaked reds as well. Bucko has been detecting them for some time. I think a lot has to do with the grape variety and how the wine was made. Barbera, for example, the way Italians make it, is fine. They keep the lighter versions more or less oak free, and apply more oak as the wines become fuller and more complex.
South Americans, particularly Argentines, seems to get away with more oak in reds than others. Again it has something to do with how they make their wines. The overdo, has mostly to do with California and some from Oz. This is not surprising as both regions destroyed white wine with oak over the last few decades.
[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 05-07-2003).]
- Drew - 05-07-2003
I don't know Foodie, I'm sure my sampling is far limited to your tasting and buying experience but my wine experience seems to point to the continued addition of oak. Maybe I'm more of an Oak phobe than I thought [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]. I have nothing scientific or factual to back up my impressions. It just seems that more new bottlings are ladden with oak, particularly Australian, California and southern France. I haven't experienced this with Italian or Spanish wines. Could it be I'm sampling wines specifically targeting the "American Palate"?
Drew
- Thomas - 05-07-2003
IK, add Chile to the over-oak list; been a lot of them lately.
But John G has a point about red's ability to take the oak better than whites--good winemakers no how to balance red or white wines.
The problem with Chardonnay and oak also has to do with malolactic fermentation, which reduces acidity, often making the wine flabby and then able to truly point out the oak.
- JohnG - 05-07-2003
Foodie makes a very good point. The only times that oak has really bothered me has been in chardonnay, and I think it's because it's so much more salient when the wine is flabby --- the wine tastes like a big mouthful of butter.
It does make me wonder what it is about the flavors imparted by wood that so many people resonate with. Armchair psychologizing leads me to think that flavors like vanilla and butter are comforting and familiar; witness the prevalence of vanilla-flavored candles, potpourri, etc., and butter is associated with a number of comfort foods.
- Thomas - 05-08-2003
Right on JohnG!!!