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Chateauneuf-de-Pape for sale - Printable Version

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- kairos - 12-16-2000

I have a case of Le Vieux Donjon 1998 I'm willing to part with for $700 - it's Wine Spectator's #4 wine of the year (97 points).


- winoweenie - 12-16-2000

Hi Kairos and welcome to the board. Wow rhat`s some strong will-power you have there.
( Let`s see 12 times $22.50 mmmmmmm ) winoweenie Good Luck!


- Bucko - 12-16-2000

Nothing personal, but that is an absurd price, and most people here are unimpressed by Wine Spectator numbers/rankings. There are a host of good CdPs to be found for $25 -- I know, I purchased eight different cases of 98s, including Donjon.

Bucko


- mrdutton - 12-16-2000

How about you reduce your will to about thirty-five cents on the dollar. Then you must also be able to thoroughly document the provenance from source to you and from you to the buyer..............

Naw, not interested. I have enough ten to twenty dollar bottles of some very fine red already waiting for me to sample; French, Italian, Australian, Californian and Virginian..........

I guess I'll pass on this one......

[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 12-16-2000).]


- 4 Seasons - 01-06-2001

This message is for winoweenie, bucko and mrdutton - I don't post much to this site much but I read it when I can - I really appreciate your views on wines and your candid remarks - but I gotta say that tonight I have read at least 2 threads where you mock ppl for the prices they are asking for the wines they are selling - you guys know your stuff and laugh at the prices theses wines are getting since you know the values - but they are getting these prices - I am a retailer in NY and have only recently started selling online and I am amazed at the prices ppl will pay for stuff just because it got a good rating from Wine "Speculator" or from Parker the price per bottle for this Donjon (+/- $59.00) is not beyond the relm of possibility - and he only has to find one person to buy it - I could have sold 50 cases of this at any price I wanted (within reason) - Our wines are listed with wine-searcher.com and we got no less than 20 calls a day until we removed the donjon from our list. I am not saying that there aren't wines out there that are as good if not better for less money, i just think that if this guy can get $700 for a case - more power to him - if you guys arent interested don't knock him too hard - he may take it the wrong way. If he waits for a year he might even be able to ask for more money!!


- winecollector - 01-06-2001

4 Seasons- First of all, welcome aboard. I don't disagree that someone, somewhere will pay those kind of prices for wine that receives high ratings in Wine Spectator, and other places. However, it's not likely to happen here on this site. If your in retail, and can make a substancial profit off of something that received a high rating, then more power to you- that's business. Only problem is, if you develope a reputation of selling wines at a high mark-up, I would think that you may not get much repeat business. If I purchased said $700 case of wine off of your establishment, and then found out how much I could have bought it for elsewhere for a fraction of the price, I wouldn't be coming back any time soon. Please understand, I'm not trying to offend you or anything, and I can't speak for the other guys on here, but I'm just telling you how I look at it.


- RAD - 01-06-2001

But winecollector, that's just the point--ever since WS bestowed its' 97 point rating, this wine got scarce quick--and the #4 rating only dried things up further. So if you were in the know, and ahead of the curve, you could have gotten this wine on the cheap. However, that's no longer the case.

There are many analogies to be made between wines and my industry (stocks). This wine here is like a hot IPO--the venture capitalists (Bucko, WW, et al.) kind of snicker at the prices paid, since they got in on earlier rounds of "financing"--now many others are willing to pay up to get a piece of the action.

Personally, I think the price is reasonable, as I've not been able to find it since here in NYC. 1998 was a vintage to remember in CDP, and the wines are built for the long haul. Now only if I hadn't already obliterated my wine budget over the holidays!! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]

RAD


- mrdutton - 01-06-2001

Aside from the CdP already mentioned, there is plenty on the shelves around here that drink very nicely. Most of them are in the 15.00 to 30.00 range........

I've seen the '98 Chateau de Beaucastel priced between $45.00 and $65.00 around here. Now that WS has gotten a hold of it, that is sure to change soon.


- 4 Seasons - 01-06-2001

Winecollector - no offense taken - Rad made mypoint exactly - sold out of the CDP in question before the rating came out - It was on our shelves I believe for $27.00 per bottle - we sold thru about 5 cases of it since its release - Had i stashed away a case of it I could have made more on that one case than I did on all the others - as far as your idea about pricing adn loosing customers you are totally correct - I only raise prices on wines that are extremely hard to find or are sought after. Then the price is what the market will bear. American economics - And wouldnt you be happy to find a hard to get wine at any price if you hadn't purchased it before it became scarce?


- Drew - 01-06-2001

<<- And wouldnt you be happy to find a hard to get wine at any price if you hadn't purchased it before it became scarce?>>

Actually no. There are so, so many good wines out there and since wine is an enjoyable pastime, and not a life changing acquisition, I chose not to be gouged and move on to the next wine.

Drew


- chittychattykathy - 01-06-2001

Part of this gets back to the comment that Roberto, Foodie and I have made before. Building relationships with wine merchants. So that you will be "in" on the top releases. Continuing relationships are a "time honored" perk of better service. The fish monger giving you his best catch, your dry cleaner gives special discounts, shoe shops call to let you know when their new season is in. (hmmm, this maybe not so special to everyone), the chef at your favorite restaurant surprising you with a unique appetizer. I would say many people have a chance at being a "venture capitalist". All they need to do to is "venture" into a wine store/shop, do some shopping and some chatting! (& do so before the "old" news from WS hits the stands.)


- Drew - 01-06-2001

So true, CCK, Christmas 99' my fav. wine store owner and I were talking about Fox Creek Aussie wines. He disappeared and returned with a 96' Fox Creek Reserve which he presented to me for $20. He said he knew I liked Aussies and was saving for me. He's also the same guy who obtained the Burgess for me, he doesn't carry it, and then discounted it! He also donated a case of wine for a silent auction being held to raise money for the children of a Baltimore City Officer killed in 2000 and his store is in a different county 20 miles away.

Drew


- hotwine - 01-06-2001

I'd happily drive that 20 miles at least a couple of times per week. And ask the fellow what HIS favorite charity is, and slip him a donation.
We can't offer too much encouragement to that sort in this world.


- Drew - 01-06-2001

Actually I only live 5 miles from his store but work in Baltimore. He runs a great business.

Drew


- mrdutton - 01-06-2001

I agree with Drew and I think that was the point I was trying to make. Why pay $58.00 for a bottle of wine that USED to retail at $23.00 just because the demand for it increased?

No way. There are just too many other labels out there waiting to be tasted. I'd rather order from Roberto for $11.00 to $27.00 a bottle not including shipping. I know I'd be getting a good product. And should I not, I'd let him know and he'd comp me..........

Better to have a good wine dealer than to have a good wine wanna have list....


- RAD - 01-06-2001

For what it's worth, let me clarify my position a bit:

CCK, I agree completely with your assertion that many folks have a chance to be in on the "venture capitalist" side of things. I also agree with building a relationship with a merchant, and that "premier" customers of this type are entitled to special treatment, as a means of thanking the customer for the length of his/her business.

But I'm also very much a "laissez-faire" economist, and believe in market efficiency. So Mr. D, why pay $58 for a bottle that used to retail at $23 simply because the demand for it has increased? Simply that--because supply and demand is what market economics is all about.

Now, of course, if someone is smart enough--as ALL of the members of this board surely are--to know that other, better wines are available cheaper elsewhere, then by all means, we can move on to greener pastures, so to speak.

But if a buyer can find a seller who is willing to pay up, then both parties are happy, and we should go on about our own business--rather than getting puffed up with pride and looking down our noses at those who choose to chase the higher price, for whatever reason (a reason, by the way, that none of us could possibly know).

The concept of value is far too complex to be boiled down to the simple economic rule of "opportunity cost"--that is, in terms of wine, its cost is equal to the next-best wine that could have been purchased. Sentimental factors, where value cannot be measured, can be one variable. To be fair, of course, ignorance or foolish spending can be another. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]

RAD


- 4 Seasons - 01-07-2001

Ya know the idea of a personal relationship with a wine merchant can be the most important thing when trying to get good buys on great wines - rated or not - some of the best wines in our shop never even get ratings since their production is small they don't submit the wines for rating - and I will always give a customer physically in my shop a better deal than someone online who I may never hear from again. I am not saying I agree with the outregeous pricing, but if someone is willing to pay it why not profit from it?


- Bucko - 01-08-2001

Buying a high-scoring or cult wine, then turning it for a profit is known as "flipping" a wine. Screaming Eagle is a good example. Most people in the trade and consumer end do not look fondly at flippers..... I could go on ad naseum, but I won't.

Bucko


- RAD - 01-08-2001

Bucko, it's exactly the same things with stocks. Trying to sell a hot IPO, when you bought it at say $15, and it opens at $60, is also called flipping.

But the irony is that retail investors are prohibited from doing this, while institutions can do it 'till the cows come home. Not looked on super-favorably in my business either, but perhaps not as bad, as that is what a market is all about--matching a buyer and a seller.

RAD


- Bucko - 01-08-2001

RAD, I disagree in one point. Wine is a consumable. Many of these flippers get on every mailing list of every cult winery that they can. They never have any intention of drinking the wine, rather to flip it. This deprives someone else who does want to drink the wine, but cannot afford the secondary market. I do not approve, but as far as I know, it is perfectly legal.....

Bucko