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+--- Thread: speaking of refridgerated restaurant wines... (/thread-15780.html)
- Kari - 09-28-1999
I took my mom out for dinner at a very well known Tai restaurant in Milwaukee last weekend. I ordered a glass of wine and after drinking nearly 3/4 of the glass, I noticed carmal colored crystal shaped stuff in the bottom of the glass. What the hell was that? The waiter pretty much accused me of putting something in the glass,"because we always check the glasses before we serve". There was no food on the table and I know it wasn't from me. Could this be due to refridgerating the wine for too long? I rather enjoyed the debate you guys were having and am curious how far this converstation will go (Being a Psychology major...and a wine geek wannabe)
- Randy Caparoso - 09-29-1999
No, in all likelihood those crystals were in the bottle long before the restaurateur got ahold of it. What you found are crystalized residuals of tartaric acid -- the predominant natural acid of the grape -- which are perfectly tasteless and harmless (except it might look a little gnarly). In most cases, wineries have settled or filtered their tartaric crystals out before bottling; but many wineries (although a definite minority these days) believe in minimal intervention, and thus would rather live with the crystals rather than taking the chance of losing some natural, delicate flavors. German whites, for instance, very often come with these crystals.
Think of them as a positive thing; because to me, wine almost always taste better at the wineries straight out of the tank or barrel -- before they've been "treated." Crystals in your bottle are the next best thing!
- Thomas - 09-29-1999
I disagree with Randy on this point: the crystals might not have been released before the restaurant got the wine. It takes chilling for the crystals to form. Most producers do the chilling at the winery so that the crystals do not precipitate in the bottle.
It is possible that the restaurant's refrigeration is quite cold, and if the winery did not get it all out, or did not get any of it out, a really cold storage will. For various technical reasons, crystal cast-off is not a uniform process for all wines.
- Randy Caparoso - 09-29-1999
Well, that's funny, foodie, since in my 22 years of managing restaurant wine programs, retail shops, and handling thousands of bottles for whatever reason, I've seen plenty with those durned crystals before we've ever done anything to them. My observation isn't based upon theory. Just experience -- for what it's worth.
- Thomas - 09-30-1999
My experience is based on the technology of the situation. Depending upon the extent, or lack, of chilling in tanks at the winery, the time and temperature needed to cause the crystals in bottles varies from wine to wine.
If you receive bottles of wine at your restaurant that are throwing off tartrate precipitates before you refrigerate them, then those bottles were chilled before you got them--at the distributor, in transport-- which I do not believe a good practice on the part of your suppliers. I would ask them about it.
- Randy Caparoso - 09-30-1999
That's my point, foodie. In all likelihood, tartrates form long before the bottles get to restaurant doors, either as a residual effect of winery treatment, or through shipment in refrigerated containers -- which is far, far more preferable than hot, unrefrigerated containers (importers and distributors pay big money for that extra service).
The bottom line is that nothing is wrong with tartrates anyway. They are a positive thing! But to say that they are caused my restaurant refrigerators is far fetched, speculative, and, well, just plain wrong.
- Thomas - 09-30-1999
"But to say that they are caused my restaurant refrigerators is far fetched, speculative, and, well, just plain wrong. "
I never posted that crystals are "caused" by restaurant refrigerators. I tried, in vain I suppose, to explain how they might occur in the bottle, in any refrigerated environment, even a restaurant.
As I posted, it is difficult to tell at what temperature and for how long a bottled wine will begin to cast tartrates; once more, it has to do with how the wine was handled at the winery and through the distribution network, not to mention the relative tartaric acidity of the wine.
It generally takes a fair amount of time for crystals to precipitate at 50 degrees, and in my view, refrigerated wine storage should not be any colder.
For you to claim that tartrates are always precipitated before the wine gets to the restaurant is as wrong as what you THINK I claimed, because there certainly are restaurants that refrigerate at much cooler temperatures than 50.
- Randy Caparoso - 09-30-1999
We are, in fact, saying the same things in different ways, but the implications are obviously different. So I apologize for any misunderstanding, or my usual dog-with-a-bone garrulousness.
This entire thread, of course, has evolved from a previous discussion about whether wine can or should be refrigerated for extended periods of time. Let me summarize:
1. It is patently absurd to believe that wine stored in refrigerators for more than 24 hours is likely to be harmed. It is obviously wrong to do long term storage in refrigerators, but there is absolutely nothing in anyone's experience that would suggest that wine is anything but kept alive and well by being refrigerated for moderate periods of time.
2. I'll grant you that tartrates can indeed increase in a restaurant unit. My point is that the period between winery stabilization and bottling and the time it takes to get delivered to a restaurant is usually so long, if anything tartaric crystals are usually formed well before we ever see them..
3. But a refrigerator is a refrigerator is a refrigerator. That means temperatures much closer to 40 to 42 degrees F. than 50. Fact is, there is no way in heck that any self-respecting restaurant in the land can get away with serving white, pink and sparkling wines at just 50 to 55 degrees. We'd get so many bottles sent back, or disgruntled guests sitting around waiting for their wine to be iced down, that we'd just look like fools. So refrigerate we must. We are, after all, in a service industry. Like it or not, that's what the vast majority of customers want, and that's what they get (I hope)!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 09-30-99).]
- Thomas - 10-01-1999
Randy, thanks for your gracious nod.
I suppose the guy/gal who asked the original question has fallen off to sleep by now, but then maybe ours was an informative, if not entertaining, discourse.
At my winery I used to chill wines to as low as 28 degrees for a couple of weeks to get the tartrates out, and even then a wine or two threw crystals in the bottle -- we have lots of acidity here on the East Coast.
Another story: back in the mid seventies I lived in Tehran for two years. They produced decent wines during the Shah's regime. I remember one Riesling that always came with a generous portion of crystal tartrates in the bottle, but I was young and unknowing, and used to think it was undissolved sugar.