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+--- Thread: Primary Fermentation (/thread-15132.html)
- uninailer - 06-17-2000
I am getting ready for my first batch of homemade wine and am abit confused on conflicting information from books that I have read. Some believe primary fermentation in glass carbouys. Once the must is prepared and placed in the carbouy, the yeast starter is added and then airlocked. Some books believe primary fermentation should be done in a plastic pail. Adding yeast starter to the must and covering with a piece of plastic and punching down the must twice a day until the yeasts rapid growth starts to taper off, then transfer to a carbouy and airlock. Whic way would be the best to go? Would appreciate any advice.
- Catch 22 - 06-17-2000
I use the plastic pail method. Just make sure you line it with a food-grade plastic bag (available at your wine-making supply store). It will be much easier this way if you are doing a red wine with the grape skins in the must, as the carboys have a small opening. BTW, depending on the yeast you use, you may not need the yeast starter. I use Montrachet yeast for my red, and it needed no starter. Ask at the store where you bought it to be sure.
Another nice thing about this method is one less carboy to clean afterward!
- winecollector - 06-18-2000
I've seen it done both ways. There are likely argueable pros and cons for each method, but either way will work. I think it pretty much comes down to a matter of personal preference, as well as what equipment you have available. The same thing can be said regarding oak barrels vs stainless tanks. There are benefits and drawbacks with each. You can use either one and still make great wine.
[This message has been edited by winecollector (edited 06-18-2000).]
- uninailer - 06-18-2000
For Winecollector. Have you used any of the wine juice available from the strip district in Pittsburgh? I'm not that far and was considering it. I have heard from another person that has tried it and some of his turned out ok, but some didn't.
- winecollector - 06-18-2000
Let me start by simply saying that personally, I refuse to make a whole batch of wine from juice or juice concentrate. This is based on personal preference, because of being a wine collector prior to being a wine maker. Not knowing who grew the grapes, not knowing what area they came from (other than general), not knowing how they were handled, if the were sprayed and with what, there are just too many unknowns for me to personally put my name on a bottle of anything like that.
Being a "wine collector" now for close to twenty years, I staunchly feel that all of these things make a big difference in the quality of the wine that you end up with. You can taste two different types of Bordeaux, two different types of California Cabernet, two different types of Chardonnay- and they are going to be different due not only to the skill of the winemaker, but also to the "terrior", as the French call it, or overall heritage of the grapes. The "terrior" includes the amount of rainfall, the composition of the soil, the care given the vines, the overall growing conditions- all these things play a major part in what ends up in the bottle.
This is why I now plant and raise my own grapes. I know exactly what I can expect from personally selecting the site for them. The site I selected was based on soil composition, degree of slope of the hillside not only for rain run off, but also for the south-south east direction. It is also right on the edge of the upper bowl part of a forested valley, and retains a higher average temperature because of this and it's elevation, in relation to other locations where grapes are also being grown only about a half a mile away. If you want high quality wine, it can get very scientific.
I think that's a question you need to ask yourself- to what extent are you willing to go to make wine? If your looking to do this as a hobby, which is what most people do it as, then you'll likely make wine that you'll be proud of from grape juice or juice concentrate. No doubt, you'll enjoy sharing it with your friends and family. If however, your used to drinking the more sought after California Cabs, or the Premier Cru Class wines, and you were expecting to make a wine of that caliber from purchased grape juice, then your going to be in for a disappointment. You will not only taste the difference, but you will also probably not care for what you made.
Since your just getting ready to make your first batch of homemade wine, my suggestion to you is to keep it as simple as possible, and have fun with it. It's going to be a long term learning process, and over time you'll continue to get more knowledgeable and better at it.
Good Luck!
- Dick Peterson - 06-20-2000
The reason you always want to use a carboy for white wine fermentations is to keep air and solid crap out of your new wine. The small opening makes it easy to let the CO2 escape while keeping air out.
The reason you cannot use a carboy for red fermentations is that you can't easily get the grape skins into and out of the bottle. It's the same reason that reds are NEVER fermented in barrels commercially even though many Chardonnays are.
I hope this helps. Dick
- winoweenie - 06-20-2000
Pay attention , you have roused rhe master and he has spoken . You can take this answer to the bank. Hi! Doc. Winoweenie
- winecollector - 06-21-2000
With all due respect sir, if Uninailer is choosing to use just the juice or juice concentrate, then there shouldn't be a problem using a glass carboy if he makes a red wine. There's an owner of a homebrew shop here in western PA, and that's all he uses. He sells both setups, though he personally prefers not to use plastic.
Uninailer- if your interested in contacting this gentleman, let me know, and I'll e-mail you his location and phone number.
[This message has been edited by winecollector (edited 06-21-2000).]
- winecollector - 06-22-2000
I was not aware that commercially made reds are never fermented in the barrel. Is this just a recent trend over the past couple of decades, because of the more popular use of stainless, or did they use something else to actually ferment in in the past? I am aware that some of the wineries still use concrete vats for this purpose. I've been considering fermenting in barrels to keep cost down when I go commercial, though I realize that stainless is better for keeping out counter-productive micro-organisms
[This message has been edited by winecollector (edited 06-22-2000).]
- Thomas - 06-22-2000
Winecollector, fermenting on the skins in the barrel makes it quite difficult to punch down the "cap" so that you continually rotate the yeast that could be locked in the skins, et al. You would also need an awful lot of barrels; this is crushed and not pressed material--the bulk is larger. Also, the practice presents you with a monumental cleaning task. It is not recommended commercially.
- uninailer - 06-22-2000
Wine collector-I would appreciate the number of the gentleman with the home brew shop. Is he located in Ford City by any chance? Thanks for the advice and your philosophy on wines. I spent a few months in california at the beginning of this year and had the opportunity to tour the wineries in Napa Valley with someone that collects wine and has an appreciation for quality, (and also knew the ropes pretty well). This is what sparked my interest. I couldn't believe how much each differant type of wine could taste from one end of the valley up to the other, all 23 miles. The lower end of the valley is near the bay, while the other end is higher in elevation and dryer.
- winecollector - 06-23-2000
Thanks Foodie, for the insight. When my grandfather made wine when I was young, he used to take barrels cut in half, and ferment his red wine in them. I was planning to do something similar to start with. Since it's going to be a few more years till the majority of my vines begin producing a substancial amount of grapes, I'm not in too big of a hurry to go out and invest thousands of dollars for equipment I don't need just yet for smaller batches. I'll have to see what I can come up with on the ol' drawing board!
Uninailer- I'll be e-mailing you.
- Thomas - 06-23-2000
If you are going to cut the barrels that is a different story. We assumed you were talking about a closed barrel as in barrel fermentated Chardonnay.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 06-23-2000).]
- winecollector - 06-24-2000
Sorry, Foodie, for the confusion. I grew up while the old time wine makers around here were using open barrels & cut barrels to ferment their wine in, and I thought that was the way everyone did it before stainless, plastic, or glass became as widely used as they are today. I was trying to figure out why you guys found fermenting reds in the barrel so unacceptable. Oh well, at least now we're on the same page!
- winoweenie - 06-25-2000
Just an aside. Almost all of the winemakers in my acquaintence use some king of wooden or cement tubs to ferment their reds. Tom Dehlinger, Ken Dies, Al Braunstein et. al. and the reason is as the good Dr P. said , the caps are punched down several times daily to extract all the good stuff. Have no idea what a carboy is unless he`s the waiter on skates that takes my order at the 5 and Diner. Winoweenie
- Thomas - 06-25-2000
Winoweenie, you obviously never made wine at home. A carboy is that 5 gallon glass jug that home winemakers use to make and store wine and that professional winemakers use as small workshops for samples.
If you are old enough, you might remember the glass bowl of water on top of the office water cooler--that is the carboy's parent. Today, I hear, they use plastic with water coolers, and I wish someone would have thought of that before I got my first job....
- winoweenie - 06-26-2000
Foodie, you mind-reader you. Right-on about me not making wine at the house. I`ve found that I can buy a whale of a lot better product, for FAR less money than I can Make.Tried home-brew once in Wichita and cost myself $165 for the clean-up work. We all have some cross to bear. Mine is not having one iota of curiosity about the process of how , and the laziness of only going to the cellar and grabbin` Winoweenie