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+--- Thread: Can anyone tell me why..... (/thread-14111.html)
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- Botafogo - 09-30-2000
vendors, importers and producers making and selling wine from Bulgaria, New Zealand, Georgia (the one in Russia), Argentina, Tunisia, the Czech Republic, British Columbia and on and on and on bother me all day long without appointments but in twenty years in the wine business I have been presented with exactly four samples from New York (and all in one day, five years ago)????
Don't say the production is too small, lots of the Italian guys we sell couldn't fill ONE DAY of Mondavi's sample allotment.
Do all of the wines sell to tourist on Long Island and Restaurants in the City??? Are Long Island winemakers the only ones on the planet who do not have a jones to have their wines broadly distributed (even just for ego purposes)? Or do they just realize they can't compete in the market (don't flame me, I have no data as I never taste any, I'm just posing the question)? What gives??? Inquiring minds want to know......
Roberto (WINE EXPO)
- Bucko - 09-30-2000
Many of the Fingers Lake Rieslings are very nice, having tried a few e.g. Glenora. If memory serves me, this has been bandied about before, and the concensus was that the local market sucks it all up. In other words, they could care less about us West Coasters.....
Bucko
- Botafogo - 10-01-2000
In that case they are the ONLY winemakers on the planet who don't have the itch to see theri wines in nice restaurants and shops in at least the major markets. So selfless of them. I still think it must be 'cause the wines can't compete on value for money.....
Roberto
- mrdutton - 10-01-2000
That may not be true, NY winemakers may not be the ONLY ones. How many Virginia wines do you stock on your shelves?
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 10-01-2000).]
- Bucko - 10-01-2000
Can't agree with you there -- the Glenora wines are tasty and offer good QPR. I think ideals get skewed a bit based on some of the CA wine scene happenings..... Not everyone cares to play the Look At Me game.
Bucko
- Thomas - 10-01-2000
Roberto, we often agree--but this time, you are out to lunch. Here are the many reasons behind the lack of NY wines on the West Coast--or any coast other than East, but first please be aware that there is much more to NY wine than Long Island (it is a big state, you know). There are over 100 wineries spanning four major districts: Finger Lakes, Long Island, Hudson Valley and Lake Erie. Finger Lakes district has the highest number of producers (more than fifty).
In quality: it is there, but it is quite spotty.
Great Rieslings in the Finger Lakes--the greatest in this country, thank you very much. Also, some fine Gewurztraminer and Cabernet Franc, with a smidgeon of un-oaked Chardonnay that remind of Macon or Chablis. Great producers: Glenora, Vinifera Wine Cellars, Prejean, Fox Run, Hermann Wiemer, and about six others.
On Long Island, Merlot does best (in my opinion). Long Island has to overcome the fierce and tenacious vegetable overtones planted their by years of potato and other vegetable farms that have been turned into vineyards. One of my favorites: Lenz (winemaker worked at Mondavi and somewhere else in Ca, plus in disclosure, he is a friend of mine.) I also like Bedell wines and one or two other producers.
Hudson Valley has some good wines, plus lots of general stuff to go around that is of no major significance. The best producer I have found: Millbrook.
Lake Erie--not much that interests me here.
Reasons for lack of wine in your neck of the country: NY wines are consumed primarily in the home market, secondarily by tourists. Scarcity of land and financial resources limit planting and growth. There is so little wine that distributors aren't interested. Most winery operators in NY have no clue about marketing, and they have yet to figure out if they want to be in the national realm, although they continually complain that nobody writes about them (they do not seem to understand that national writers cover wines that are available nationally).
Having said all that let me make this suggestion: instead of waiting for NY wine to come to you, why not go to it? You do this with Italian wines, and I suppose others when you travel abroad. It seems to me that while the NY wineries want it both ways, so do the retailers who complain about not getting NY wine. Create your own access and you might be surprised at what happens.
- Botafogo - 10-01-2000
In a word, if guys from Calabria and Molise with two thousand bottle production who could easily sell it all at the local trattorias show up here wanting me to buy their wines, I STILL find it VERY hard to believe that at least ONE of the NY wineries would not make an attempt.
We have Virginian Wines (from Horton), several wines from Ontario and even FIVE labels of Elderberry wine from KANSAS (not to mention Coconut Arak from Sri Lanka and Pumpkinseed oil from Kaltersee Austria) all of which have representation here in the largest fine wine market in the world.
Again, I make no declarative statements re the quality / price because I have never been given a statistcally relevent sample. THAT is the part that still puzzles me, especially considering the huge annual coverage in the Speculum most years. And as to writers only writing about wines with national distribution, that is just plain not true in any way shape or form: half the wines written up in the major rags are from miniscule cult wineries or are tiny edition special bottlings of larger cantinas.
And I am NOT complaining about not getting NY wines (we have way more than enough on our plate!), I just find it extraordinarily curious that they seem so limited in distribution if they are actually any good.
Roberto
- Thomas - 10-01-2000
Roberto, I tried to explain why NY wines are limited in distribution--don't you believe any of what I said? Thems are the facts, like it or not.
By the way, the guys from Molise and Calabria have the ability to tap into some government funds--we don't get that kind of help here in the land of the free, and certainly not in the state known for its take rather than its give.
Re, the national writers not covering what is nationally available: that's the excuse given by the writers, not by me. I have heard that song far too many times for you to persuade me otherwise. And while we are at it, the Expectorant annual coverage of NY wine always leaves me to wonder if the guys with the taste for bomb-throwing oak haven't taken over that rag. They do not seem to understand fruit, acid and the marriage between wine and food.
As for price-quality ratio, that is an area I think NY has a distinct disadvantage. It is costly to produce here, and although the quality can be great, the price for vinifera-based products is often problematic when you consider what is out there from the world over. This is a function both of cool climate growing (which is not always cooperative) and limited land for planting. What they get away with in Burgundy pricing for limited vineyard plantings is not even up for discussion in NY.
Next time you are on your way to Italy, you could stop at Kennedy Airport, grab a car and drive around NY State for a few days. I will gladly give you the VP tour, provided I am not on my way to Italy at the time....
- Botafogo - 10-01-2000
>>As for price-quality ratio, that is an area I think NY has a distinct disadvantage. It is costly to produce here, and although the quality can be great, the price for vinifera-based products is often problematic when you consider what is out there from the world over.<<
Foodie (or anyone else), name me another product where the inablilty to produce at market levels of quality and within some semblance of market prices would not be a no-brainer deal breaker as to whether to produce at all. This is the BIGGEST problem with California wines: people who evidently have too much money to throw down the rathole of another trendy restaurant or nightclub instead overbuild a vanity winery on expensive land that could be used to house DotCom billionaires and want $40 a bottle net wholesale for their fist vintage of boring Chardonnay. Then they stand in my store and actually say (when presented with competing wines of equal or higher quality at one third or less the price of theirs) "But, you can't compare the costs of production here in California with that in Italy (or Argentina or Hungary or whereever), that's not fair". QUE?!?!?!?!? Do they buy tractors and farm supplies like that (come to think of it, probably)???? Shoes???? Cars???? Me thinks not, bottom line is they have a winery because the WANT to have one, not because it is an economically sustainable proposition.
Roberto
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-01-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-01-2000).]
- mrdutton - 10-01-2000
I find it interesting that you have Horton's product available out west. I guess that is where it all goes, because I sure can't buy it here. (Might be because Horton is a Rhone Ranger.)
Virginia has 59 wineries/vineyards. The marketing association says "all producing world class wines".......... But where are they going? They sure are not being widely marketed here in Tidewater - despite all the wine tastings we have. (We are the 27th largest marketing area in the US.)
I have only seen two Virginia wines sold locally, Williamsburg Winery (which is within spitting distance) and Prince Michel which is in Central Virginia near Culpepper. I have not found a local source for Horton wines. I can not seem to get them here unless I log onto the internet (evineyard.com) to order them or unless I travel to the winery and that is a 3 1/2 hour drive (one way).
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 10-01-2000).]
- Thomas - 10-02-2000
Dutton, I think that is referred to as "prestige marketing." Go where the prestige will greet you.
Roberto, not making excuses, just telling like it is. If NY wineries cannot compete on the world stage in pricing, and they can sell all that they make at home, why not?
- Botafogo - 10-02-2000
If they can sell it at home through leveraging local pride and tourists' desire for souvenirs over value considerations more power to them but it seems an awfully uphill row to hoe.
I guess our local similar example is Temecula, which we often refer to as a real estate project put together for San Diegans jealous of how the Bay Area had Napa/Sonoma and we here in LA had Santa Barbara so they created a wine and horsey zone just north of town that they can visit on weekends even though the wines suck.
different strokes, Roberto
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-02-2000).]
- Thomas - 10-02-2000
RB, now you got it!
True, tourists and at-home markets can get you only so far. As a winery owner, if that is what you want--shut up and stay at home; if it isn't, do something about it.
My winery closed in 1993, after eight years, because I could not see how I was able to afford keeping it open, and at the same time get what I wanted out of it.
I do not understand many NY wineries. On one hand, they complain they get no respect; on the other, they hide their products from the world. But I do understand their practical problems.
- mrdutton - 10-02-2000
Holy-schmolie foodie, the prestige don't hardly bat an eyelash when I walk by, let alone greet me. I guess a trip to Alexandria or DC is in order. Those markets probably have the stuff...... Either that or a 7 hour round-trip to Culpepper..... Or maybe I could fly to LA and visit Roberto's store.
- glenora - 10-03-2000
May as well jump in----
Roberto, I could turn your question around and ask "can anyone tell me why, whenever a NY producer heads out into the wild world of wine distributors and retailers, the most common reply to a request to carry our products (and most often before tasting or asking about pricing) is-----"Why should I carry your wines--no one is asking for them", or "NY wines--they are all sweet foxy tasting things, no one drinks that anymore" (an untruth still promoted by the most of the wine press who would rather report age-old heresay, rather than getting out into the field and learning what is really happening).
Foodie had done a great job of explaining many of the reasons we are not out there, as well Foodie and Bucko have given us a bit of credability it terms of wine quality, which I don't feel is the issue, or is pricing.
As a 40000 case producer I would welcome the opportunity to expand our market place. During our 20 plus years in the wine business we have spend countless hours and dollars pounding the pavement from Boston to DC, and even a few forays into CA, in the early 90's. We have always done "the things" that distributors request--samples, POP, tastings, winery sales reps in the trade, etc.--but to this point to no avail.
Generally I believe this is the situation with most NY producers who venture out into the market place. Palmer, a Long Island producer, has spent a fortune over the years and, and in terms of case sales for dollars invested, has little to show other than being able to say "my wines are distributed in ?? states".
As far has NY producers selling locally, I believe most have subscribed to the "drop the pebble in the puddle", and let the waves move out concept theory of marketing. In other words, if visitors at the winery enjoy the wines they will go home and ask their favorite wine shop to carry them--pull through marketing. This has workd quite well for markets within 300+/- of the wineries.
Roberto--Thanks for asking the question--maybe it will cause others to ask why haven't I looked at, or tried to find, some NY wines.
Let me know if you decide to take up Foodie's offer for a personal tour of New York winery country--I would be glad to make arrangements for visits in the Finger Lakes wine region.
Gene
- mrdutton - 10-03-2000
<<As far has NY producers selling locally, I believe most have subscribed to the "drop the pebble in the puddle", and let the waves move out concept theory of marketing. In other words, if visitors at the winery enjoy the wines they will go home and ask their favorite wine shop to carry them--pull through marketing. This has workd quite well for markets within 300+/- of the wineries.>>
You might have a good point there. A quick check of Pop's Wine and Spirits online inventory (www.popswine.com) shows wines from about 4 sources/wineries in the Finger Lakes (none of them Glenora) region and about 21 different sources/wineries from Long Island.
I realize this small sampling is not statistically correct, but it sure supports your ripple marketing statement. How far away from Long Island is the Finger Lakes region? A few hundred miles isn't it?
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 10-03-2000).]
- Botafogo - 10-03-2000
>>"can anyone tell me why, whenever a NY producer heads out into the wild world of wine distributors and retailers, the most common reply to a request to carry our products (and most often before tasting or asking about pricing) is-----"Why should I carry your wines--no one is asking for them", or "NY wines--they are all sweet foxy tasting things, no one drinks that anymore" (an untruth still promoted by the most of the wine press who would rather report age-old heresay, rather than getting out into the field and learning what is really happening).<<
That's easy: most retailers and 98% of all distributors (as opposed to one man importer / selector / distributor types) are spineless sheep. It's the same reason why you can spend five hours in the Emilia-Romagna pavillion at VinItaly (featuring a thousand wineries and the size of your average convention center) and NEVER hear a word of English (in an American accent at least).
We like to tell people that our competitors are like the WareHouse (a large chain of record stores here that only sells the "hits" and no one working there has a CLUE) while we are like Aaron's Records (an independent) where an orange haired kid with five nose rings is apt to grab you buy the shoulders and scream in your face that "You've got to hear this band NOW, they changed my life!"
And, these same retailers and distributors are telling thousands of producers from all over the world the same thing YET THEY PERSIST. I still think it MUST boil down to value for money.
Send us some samples and let us see:
WINE EXPO
2933 Santa Monica Blvd
Santa Monica, Ca 90404
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 10-03-2000).]
- glenora - 10-05-2000
Mrdutton--
regarding the "stone in the puddle wave theory"--(why NY wines are sold locally, and are not distributed/marketed on a broader basis--which was Roberto's question/comment)
The Finger Lakes wine region is about 325-350 miles north and west of the Long Island wine region; and about 275 miles away from Foodies favorite Burg (NYC).
As you point out there are very few, if any, Finger Lakes wines sold on Long Island. There are a few Finger Lakes wines sold in the city--but most likely 15-20 average wine consumers could drink all of the NY wine sold in "the city" last year, during the course of a week of average consumption.
Likewise there are very few Long Island wines available upstate (Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo). I suspect the reason being that most upstate people (retailers/consumers) are not aware of the Long Island wine industry and consequently are reluctant to purchase them--we hear the same thing about wines for VA., MD, PA, etc., etc.
So, that is why many of us work very hard to bring people to the wineries and give them the opportunity to learn first hand about our wines. Knowing that, in many instances, they will then head back home to ask their local wine shops to handle our products--pull through marketing.
- glenora - 10-05-2000
Roberto---
Thanks for your willingness to try the wines!!
Somehow, within the next 7-10 days some bottles of Dry Riesling, Riesling, Pinot Blanc should appear at your doorstep, along with bottles of Brut, Blanc de Blanc, and Extra Dry sparkling wines.
As well, I will also send you tasting notes, product information sheets, and pricing information.
You then can make your determination(s)about the quality, and value for the money.
Gene
- winoweenie - 10-05-2000
Glenora, Don`t you think you need a 2nd opinion? winoweenie