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+--- Thread: Sommelier & Waiter wine encounters? (/thread-13541.html)
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- Stephen Yafa - 04-17-2006
Hi:
For a newspaper article on how to get good service from a wine director and navigate a lengthy restaurant wine list, I'd love to pass on real-life anecdotes. Good, bad, horrific or in between.
Steve
- wondersofwine - 04-17-2006
A few tips I've used:
Ask pointed questions:
I don't like overoaked Chardonnays--is this one aged in stainless steel or in oak?
(Sometimes the sommelier or waiter will offer a sip to help you decide if this is what you are seeking or not)
For a French Rhone rose' I asked the grape and was assured that it was 100% Syrah--I'd not liked a grenache rose' that I had tried elsewhere
Tell the sommelier what you will be eating and what wines you are considering and ask for a recommendation--in a DC restaurant the recommendation was for a wine I had not mentioned and turned out to be a perfect choice; in a Raleigh restaurant the owner first tried to steer me to another white wine, but when I said I didn't want anything with too much oak influence he agreed that my choice would probably be best
At one restaurant in DC where they know I have a love for red Burgundies, the manager suggested a fairly serious Beaujolais on one occasion and gave me a good price on a half bottle of Burgundy on another occasion (that restaurant sells wine by the half-bottle or full bottle and doesn't offer wine by the glass and he knew a full bottle would be too much wine to handle and drive and also too expensive.) In this case the manager took the initiative to help me find the right wine.
In another restaurant in Charlotte the only Pinot Noir was one I had never had and I was hesitant to order it so they brought a sip for me to try--I then ordered it.
Another restaurant in Raleigh let me sip from two wines they were offering by the glass--a zinfandel and a pinot noir--to make my choice.
- Innkeeper - 04-17-2006
There is a theory, most likely an urban legend, that the best value is the second least expensive wine of a given type, e.g. Cabernet Sauvignon. True or false we've done this a few times from long lists of Cabs and other kinds of wine, and were well pleased.
- Thomas - 04-17-2006
I don't trust restaurants with a wine list the size of the bible. Either they won't have everything in stock, or a lot of wine is held in inventory so long that the wine prices will be too high or many of the wines will be subjected to storage problems--or both.
With a list that size, I go for IK's legend...
I also like to evaluate the server's level of knowledge with a few pointed questions.
- andypandy - 04-17-2006
Methinks I'd be afraid to take Foodie's impromptu quiz as a waiter...
- wondersofwine - 04-18-2006
Some restaurants have taken to listing wines by light body to medium body to full-bodied which may be helpful to some who know their preference. Also, some restaurants with extensive wine inventory have a standard list and a reserve list of more expensive and often more mature wines. The customer can indicate which list fits their desires (i.e. budget).
- stevebody - 04-18-2006
More and more - especially since opening our shop - we've taken to bringing our own and paying the corkage. It's rarely over $20 and here's the reason that works:
Example: La Carraia "Fobiano"
One of our favorite wines.
Wholesale cost: 18.90
My retail: $25.99
Wine List Price: $95
(at our favorite swanky Italian
place in Kirkland)
Their Corkage: $15
Our cost w/corkage: $33.90
Saved: 61.10
That's a radical example but not the most extreme around here. What restaurants think of as fair markup has always struck me as extortion based on the fact that their wine is all you have to choose from, short of bringing your own. One knucklehead I worked with raised hell with me one day because I priced a $32.50 bottle of Barolo for "only" $65. He said it should be $85 and screamed that he was "losing money". Never mind that we were selling the bejesus out of it at $65 and hadn't sold ONE bottle in 14 months at $85. It's really owners who drive the wine program at most restaurants because a lot of them are quite happy to stock crappy $5 wines and sell them at inflated prices. If your sommelier seems awkward or hamstrung, it's sometimes because they've got marching orders.
My favorite horror stories have to do with waiters trying to brazen their way through selling wine when they clearly don't know anything about it, like the guy who tried to convince me that Valpolicella is made from a grape called Valpolicella, after I told him I wasn't looking for a blend. Lying to an unfamiliar patron is the worst thing a restaurant person can do because you never know who you're dealing with. A waiter here told me about Robert Parker dining at the restaurant where he worked and one of his buddies, who didn't recognize Parker, trying to quote his own review back to him - a totally fabricated rating and review that Parker had never written. I asked my pal if he had told his friend that it was Parker and he said, "No. It was too much fun watching Parker's eyes glaze over."
It's a minefield but, for me, I just gently take over the process and steer the server toward what I'd like, hoping that I can make them think that they did it all. That offer of a sip from the bottle works wonders, though. I most always do that, even when we've brought our own.
[This message has been edited by stevebody (edited 04-18-2006).]
- Kcwhippet - 04-18-2006
To add to Steve's bit about offering a taste to the server. We live in a state where BYOB is illegal, except in restaurants that don't have alcohol licenses but only in towns where the chief of police allows them to (gotta love the Massachusetts puritanical blue law mentality). Anyway, we have a favorite diner owned by an extremely talented chef who got fed up with the big restaurant mode and his wife, who's a local real etate tycoon (that bit has no relevance to any of this story). They serve breakfasts every day and dinners on Thursday and Friday nights only. We chanced on them while driving around one Saturday morning and had the most wonderful breakfast in years. I had what he called the New Zealand breakfast, which was six asparagus spears boiled then sauteed in butter with a bit of lemon juice topped with a breaded sauteed rainbow trout filet topped again with two dropped eggs and freshly made hollandaise sauce. We saw a card on the table that they also served dinners twice a week and since they have no license the place was BYOB. So, we finally went in for dinner and brought our wine. They had an item on the menu called "Kobster Your Way" which means they'll cook it any way you want. I asked if they had it stuffed and the waitress said it was the best she'd ever had, so I tried it. It looked like a typical baked stuffed, but the stuffing - what a surprise!! It was stuffed with large shrimp and large scallops with just a sprinkling of bread crumbs over the top. So, we're eating this wonderful meal and the lady owner came by asking how we liked the meal. I said it was wonderful and asked if she'd like a taste of wine, and of course she said yes. I also offered her husband - the chef - some but he declined. We've been in numerous times since and she always comes by and gets a taste of wine, but her husband always refuses. Finally a few weeks ago she told me he was a beer drinker, and IPA was his favorite. So last Friday when we went in I brought him two 22 oz bottles of IPA from some microbreweries - a Moylan's Double IPA and a Victory Hop Devil IPA (working in a shop with a fanatical beer buyer is a good thing). I believe this can only work to our advantage.
[This message has been edited by Kcwhippet (edited 04-18-2006).]
- Innkeeper - 04-18-2006
Had an experience similar to Steve and his Barolo. I was "assisting" an NCO Club in North Dakota, and found that the manager was simply doubling the wholesale price on everything. This was commendable for the less expensive wines, but it raised the price on Moet & Chandon White Star from $25 wholesale to $50. I asked him why he didn't sell it for $35. He said, "Then I'd be losing $15." So I ask him how many bottles he sold in the last year, and the answer was, "None." He called me a few weeks later to ask if I could get his allocation increased, because he cleaned out his inventory at $35, and $10 a bottle was more than he made on his other stuff. So, I asked him why he didn't charge more for the other stuff. Even though it was a phone call, I could see his eyes glaze over.
- wondersofwine - 04-18-2006
I don't like it either when restaurants more than double the cost of a wine as their markup, but I thought it was definitely bad form to bring a wine from home that is available on the restaurant list.
- Thomas - 04-18-2006
If I don't like the prices at a restaurant I don't patronize the place. I am of the opinion that it is bad form to bring a wine that is on the list. It is their place. They establish their price. I either live with it or move on. If I bring a wine that is not on their list I ask if they mind, and I always offer some to the staff.
I recognize that a restaurant needs to earn what it needs to earn, but I don't think they need to do it by simply charging an exorbitant price--in fact, they can do it by charging a decent price and move more volume, which is why that big wine list bothers me--slow volume leads to high prices and possibly wine ruined in storage.
Steve hits on something that drives my wife nuts: since I know both the import and the wholesale price of wine, she has a hard time getting me to go out to many restaurants and when we do go, she is embarrassed when I react to the rip off.
This weekend I am being forced to go to an extravagant and wasteful niece's wedding. At one of those things you can almost bet the wine will make me react strongly...
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 04-18-2006).]
- winoweenie - 04-19-2006
Here in Phoenix I only patronize restaurants that price their wine fairly. One of the better restaurants in town lost me after my 1st encounter with their 3x wholesale markup. Some of the chains are brutal here. Ruth Chris' charges 35 per for Beringer White Zin! Holy-Moly!!! WW
- Thomas - 04-19-2006
WW, that's a dollar for every gram of residual sugar. Now ain't that expensive sugar...
- brappy - 04-19-2006
I try to stay out of these threads but WW, what is fair mark-up for wine in a restaurant? Being in the business and not agreeing with the owner on his pricing policy leaves me in quite a quandry.
And Foodie, I assume you've been in the business long enough too know what can be done. I'd like, if you would, to give pros and cons of your pricing modules if you were to own a restaurant.
Myself, I'd probably agree on a flat increase in price but how would that be done? Any ideas?
mark
- winoweenie - 04-20-2006
Braps if a restaurant can't add porfit to their bottom line by charging double their cost on wine then their management is in question. Thruout Calif most of the good restaurants operate on this, turn inventory quickly, and have repeat business because of happy campers. If you order a lunch that's priced at 10 bucks, real cost of 2.50, then adding a 12.50 cost bottle of wine at 25 adds more bottom line than a cup of coffe at 2 bucks that cost 20 cents. Selling 10 bottles with a profit of 12.50 vs. selling 2 bottles at 37.50 is a win-win. I never try to tell anyone how to price their product. If I don't like it I just vacate the premisis. WW
- Thomas - 04-20-2006
Mark,
I tried persuading restaurateurs to think in a new direction.
The first thing I believe is that the average wine price should be equal to the average price of the main course--not that there shoudn't be high priced wines, just that they should be the special cases.
I realize that, when analyzed, the mark up for wine is about equal to the mark up on the food, but the food has to be prepared, and some of it is even wasted. The wine only has to be opened.
Wine inventory should be minimal for two reasons: keep the cost of holding wine down and keep the wine list from being static.
I like the pricing model that fixes on a flat dollar amount above retail for all wines. In that case, the restaurant not only is promoting the idea of drinking up, but it is possibly creating more volume sales of wine by reaching more wallets. Anyone in retail knows that volume is where the money is.
Volume wine sales also helps motivate the staff--especially a trained staff--as tips rise with more bottles going to tables.
What that flat dollar should be is up to each restaurant to decide; what it can afford to give up in mark up to get the program going should be made up soon enough in volume sales.
Does this make sense to you Mark? If not, tell me why you don't think so.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 04-20-2006).]
- Innkeeper - 04-20-2006
Mark, the standard mark up makes a lot of sence. I used to recommend 2X over wholesale to a point, and then a set addon thereafter. However, in Maine and New Hampshire, and I think elsewhere, restaurants have to buy wine retail. In those cases having a standard addon from the getgo is the way to go.
- brappy - 04-20-2006
I understand and agree with what everyone is saying. It's tough to sell the idea to owners where the wine is SELLING at inflated prices. I blame these sales on corporate dinners and functions, and uneducated wine drinkers where restaurants can and do get away with it. The whole thing is very frustrating.
I simply wish owners would/could understand wine complements the meal and shouldn't be a luxury item priced so high it compliments nothing. Seems pretty simple........
Oh, and I believe 2x wholesale is about right...... with a curve.....
mark
- hotwine - 04-20-2006
The practice of restaurants pricing their wines at 3X retail is so prevalent and consistent in this area that I suspect the distribs are behind it.... probably recommending that model to the restaurant owners.
All the more reason to invest in good storage, to allow a consumer to buy take-out from a nice eatery and bring it home, where it can be enjoyed with a treasure from a well-stocked cellar.
- stevebody - 04-21-2006
Just had this discussion again with one of my customers, spittin' mad because he went to El Gaucho in Seattle and was charged $120 for a Kathleen (Katherine?) Kennedy "Lateral" that he later found out he could get for about 40 clams retail. I talked him gradually out of the bell tower and got him to surrender the rifles but I've certainly been there enough times that the rifles don't seem out of line for some places.
The reasoning that I always use when talking restaurant wine sales to both owners and servers is that every bottle of wine you sell is like seating an extra person at that two, four, or ten-top. Since tips are based on percentages of your total bill, servers should be standing on their heads to sell wine and they could and should lean on the owners to set prices that make the wines not only possible but attractive. I did a seminar last week with a Woodinville restaurant and explained this to the servers and I could almost literally see little cartoon light bulbs winking on over their heads. One of the women told me afterwards that she had always treated wine the same way she treated appetizers and desserts. Now, she saw, they don't have no apps and sweets that cost $45 apiece! Cha-Ching! And the owner, who is also the chef, got my not-so-subtle hints about pricing and told me she was going to Foodie's flat-rate-over-cost scale. It was only one restaurant but it's a start....