+- WineBoard (https://www.wines.com/wineboard)
+-- Forum: GENERAL (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-100.html)
+--- Forum: Rants & Raves (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Tastevin's cork question (/thread-13529.html)
- Thomas - 02-23-2004
Tastevin, I used to accept the synthetic stoppers as a reasonable alternative to the tainted cork problem but two things have changed my mind: the synthetic's often insistence on not separating from the corkscrew worm; the news that cork taint is the wrong moniker for a wine taint that can be induced by other means.
As for screwcaps: the jury is not in completely, but if tests prove the screwcap to be neither detrimental nor prone to taint, I say: do it. The cork tradition established itself only about 300 years ago; wine is 8,000 years old. Tradition is only such until it ends.
The whole idea of ritual in popping corks (especially in restaurants) is simply not a strong enough argument to stop the development of a potentially better way of capping a bottle--if the screwcap proves to be a better way.
- Innkeeper - 02-23-2004
Composites: Understand that they have the same problems that corks have.
Synthetics: Agree with Foodie. They are particularly adept at taking the teflon off so treated worms.
Screw Tops: So far, we like them. Have had some problems opening certain ones until we learned how to do it (sort of like opening a bottle of bubbly; hold the top, and turn the bottle).
- Tastevin - 02-23-2004
Thanks Foodie and Innkeeper for your input.
Agree that synthetic corks don't want to let go of the corkscrew worm. Really annoying and finger-cracking!
Anybody else?
Has anybody had a 'corked' wine from a screw-capped bottle? If so,when was that, in which Country was the wine made and what was the vintage? Also could I have your definition of 'corked' please?
T
- Thomas - 02-23-2004
Whose definition?
In my view, and now that research shows it ain't just corks, the word "corked" is wrong. Even if TCA were just a problem in corks, the word should either be "corky" or simply TCA tainted.
For my wine class, if I haven't come across a tainted wine that week, I use a piece of cardboard dropped into a glass of wine to illustrate the smell--which is a cross between a wet rag and wet cardboard.
Many times I have opened a wine that on the cork and in the first pour I detected what seemed like a hint of taint. The wine would taste ok. But within minutes the wine would truly smell bad and then taste like nothing. It seems that oxygen exposure helps along the taint process.
Of course, there have been equally as many times when the taint was so bad I have not had to pour the wine at all.
- wondersofwine - 02-23-2004
I just opened a screwcap (Stelvin) bottle of a New Zealand chardonnay last night and I like the screwcap. Experts aren't sure how well it serves wines for the holding (ones you want to cellar for ten or more years). I bought a recent vintage Argyle Pinot Noir (Oregon) and it also has a Stelvin cap. A distributor of Ports says that as much as 5% of wines can be ruined by cork taint and calls it stealing from the customer. Some wine retailers or wineries will replace a "corked" wine but what happens if you don't discover it until you open that beauty ten years after purchase?
- Tastevin - 02-24-2004
Foodie, what term (apart from swearwords that is) do you use when a wine smells of cork, and not of a cross between wet rag and wet cardboard?
Ww, I imagine that a 'holding' wine will have developed less due to no oxygen being able to get through the screwcap and into the wine.
T.
- Thomas - 02-24-2004
Not sure I ever had a wine that smelled simply like cork, Tastevin. Cork, before inserted into the bottle, smells like nothing much except a mild wood.
- Tastevin - 02-24-2004
Foodie, I am surprised.
Have you never come across a bad (not vinegary) bottle of wine and found its cork is poor, soft, or disintegrating? I’m sure you must have noticed that the wine had a distinct smell of cork.T
- Thomas - 02-25-2004
Well, no. If the cork has disintegrated the wine will have oxidized, and that would be, for me, the dominant smell.
As I said, cork, when new, smells to me vaguely like wood. I suspect the mustiness of cork after it has been in the neck of a bottle for some time has a lot to do with the wine that soaked it, rather than the other way around. A suspicion--don't know of any science behind that!
- Tastevin - 02-26-2004
Hello Foodie.
Sorry, but I don't grasp what you're getting at when you say '.... the mustiness of cork after it's .........'. If you're saying that it could be faulty wine that's responsible, then why is that more often than not it is only an odd bottle in a case and not the whole bottling?
I agree that a wine will be oxidized if the cork has disintegrated, but I didn't say 'disintegrated', I said 'disintegrating'. What happens in this instance is that the faulty cork is gradually breaking down inside the bottle (due to action of the wine upon the fault/s), but not yet enough to allow sufficient oxygen through to oxidize the wine. However, what it does allow is the cork’s now bad (as in rotten) parts to begin somehow to gradually spoil the wine, including imparting what is now an aroma of bad cork (but still an aroma of cork). This gradual spoilage explains why some bottles are very corked and others are only slightly corked, and, if the cork has broken down sufficiently, why others are oxidized.
So, that is a ‘corked’ wine.
Your wet rag/cardboard smell is due probably to TCA and is quite different, perhaps that is why sometimes there is no cork aroma. Perhaps we should call yours ‘ragboard’. [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
Hopefully Foodie, you will find yourself here in the not too distant future. If so, and you have the time, it would be nice to continue this discussion in person over a glass or two of Meursault or whatever.
T.
- Thomas - 02-26-2004
It appears, Tastevin, we are suffering from a slight language discrepancy.
In America, people refer to TCA as a "corked" wine; that is what I was railing against. It is a misnomer to call a wine tainted with TCA as being corked, especially since TCA can be introduced in another way...or two.
What you refer to as "corked" is the actual condition of a wine having cork particles in it. That makes more sense than the above reference to the word. But to the idea that the smell is from the cork--not sure about that.
That musty-woody smell of a staurated cork is reminscient (to me) of what happens to the smell of the barrels when wine is in it. The components of the wine reacting with the wood create new smells, which (again, to me) are musty--not wet rag (as in TCA); cellar smell, for want of a better term.
That deteriorated cork you speak of would have the same smell as above. It represents the resulting smell of the wine having saturated the cork, which to me is not the same thing as the smell of cork.
You must know by now that I am a pedant on some matters--if you don't know it, you should listen to my wife for about twenty minutes on the subject of pedant and me. [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-26-2004).]
- Tastevin - 02-26-2004
No Foodie, what I am referring to is categorically not the wine having pieces of cork in it (after well over 40 years in the wine trade I am well aware of the term for that - It’s ‘wine with pieces of cork in it!’).
Bearing in mind that the nose of wine aged in wood reflects that fact, to a higher or lesser degree, then it stands to reason does it not, that a bad cork’s smell will be imparted to the bottled wine? As I’m sure you know, because wine is very sensitive barrels are cleaned inside before being filled with wine to avoid it being contaminated.
Here we do not associate ‘musty-woody’ with the smell of a barrel with wine in it; a cellar or barrel with a musty smell is a cellar or barrel with a problem, and so has the wine from it. And no, a bad cork does not smell musty. A bad orange for example has an unpleasant smell, but with eyes closed one would still know it is an orange, because it smells like one; new smells would certainly have been created during its deterioration, but the over-riding aroma would still be orange.
To me, a wine cork has its own distinctive smell. If someone were to put one under my nose I would know that it was a cork, not a wood pencil, not a wood matchstick.
When you say musty-woody do you not mean musty-corky? After all, you said earlier that to you cork smells vaguely of mild wood. Which mild wood would that be, deal, ash, pine? I would respectfully suggest none of them or any other, and your ‘mild wood’ smell is in fact that of cork.
I am sure your good lady knows that being pedantic does not necessarily mean one is correct. T
- Thomas - 02-26-2004
..that's the truth. Of course, I don't think I said that I am correct. As in taste, smell is on the subjective side too, which is why each time I referred to what the cork or musty smell seemed like I interjected (to me) and it is obvious it is not so to you (being pedantic, I thrive on such trivial distinctions).
And so, we have a difference in opinion which, people being what we are, is what usually happens when a question is asked and an answer is given.
Anyway, what descriptor do you give to the smell of a cork (not a disintegrated one) that you pull from an aged bottle of Bordeaux?
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-26-2004).]
- Tastevin - 02-27-2004
Hello Foodie. Actually I don't smell corks unless the wine tells me to. However,I'll try to make a point of sniffing one the next time I open an aged Claret. Not wishing to be pedantic, but how aged do you want it to be? T.
- Thomas - 02-27-2004
Well, considering I have no immediate plans for a trip to England, maybe you should put a few aside from the so-called vintage of the century (2000) and wait until I arrive--then, we can smell corks together. Better yet, you can smell the corks and I'll finish the wine...
But seriously, can you give me a descriptor--not a noun like wood, but an adjective. Musty, to me, is like moldy. And wherever there is moisture--especially so close to wood--I believe you will find mold, even if it be benign mold, even if there is such a thing. [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img]
- Tastevin - 02-28-2004
Again Foodie, not wishing to be thought pedantic but as I said, I don't sniff corks unless the wine tells me to. If I'm still alive and kicking when you eventually get here I will be delighted to share the cork sniffing AND the wine with you. Now for a really serious question - what does that blue, blinking Smilie mean please? T.
- Thomas - 02-28-2004
Is that little blue bugger infecting my posts again??