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- amshih - 11-07-1999

Hey, female wine drinkers -- has this ever happened to you?

This weekend my date and I stopped by a restaurant to share a late-night bottle of wine. *I* ordered the wine, but when the waiter brought over the bottle he proceeded to present the bottle to my date (not me!) and gave *him* the cork, then filled our glasses without letting him (or me) taste the wine first! Throughout the whole "wine ritual", my date and I were trying hard not to laugh at the incredible faux pas.

So, what's the proper way to handle such blatent sexism in wine service? It's one thing for the waiter to give the man the wine list (I just ask for a second one) -- it's another thing to present the bottle to the man when the woman was the one who ordered the wine!

BTW -- the wine we had was a 1997 Bethel Heights pinot noir. It was rather nice!


- n144mann - 11-07-1999

Oh Anna, this happens to me ALL the time...in fact, we discussed this on here back in May I think it was. I can request the wine list...order the wine....and still when they bring it, it is usually given to the man I am with. I usually don't fuss....if it is my husband I am with, he will simply hand me the cork and that often tips off the waitstaff that I am the one making the decision, but not always. It seems to be just one of the sexist things that we have to live with. I have grown used to it. What you will see in better restaurants, with better trained staff is that they will lay the cork on the table between the two of you...then whoever picks up the cork, gets the wine tasting duty also.

Nancy


- Bucko - 11-07-1999

As if the woman knows........ (just KIDDING!!!) My wife's palate puts mine to shame when it comes to trying to pick out that obscure flavor -- gooseberries, now who the hell eats gooseberries?

I would not be shy in this case. I would simply say "Excuse me, but I need to evaluate the wine to make sure that it is not corked." That should put them in their place. Go get 'em!

Bucko


- Jerry D Mead - 11-08-1999

Twenty-five years ago, my ex-wife and I had a routine for such establishments/personnel.

Things were even stodgier and stuffier then, and we sometimes went into the routine just to see how the waiter would handle it (we were writing a restaurant column called "Two For Dinner" at the time).

In a restaurant where we weren't known, when they brought a single wine list, I'd hand it to her.

When the waiter returned he'd invariably ask what I wanted to order even though she was holding the list. I'd play really dumb and say I didn't know anything about that stuff and defer to her.

Sometimes they would catch on at this point, but others were just butt-stupid and would still offer the taste to me.

The savvy ones, or the ones who caught on quickly received good service reviews...the dolts we nailed in print.

Funny thing back then, the fancier the restaurant, the more steeped in tradition with white tablecloth and tuxedoed waitstaff...the more likely to offend.

The inexperienced waiter was willing to do whatever was asked of him...proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

For this situation today, especially when it's your husband or a regular friend...he should probably just say (firmly) "Present the wine to the lady, she's the one who ordered." Or simply slide the glass to you and take your empty in its stead.


- Thomas - 11-08-1999

Here's a trick my wife and I play. Sometimes she orders the wine, sometimes I do. When the waiter leaves to go get our order, we put both wine glasses in front of the one who did the ordering. The waiter gets the message real quick.

Of course, we do this at restaurants we already know tend to serve the male the taste, no matter who orders.

If we are unfamiliar with the restaurant, we give the benefit of the doubt. Then, if the waiter serves me and it was my wife who ordered, I slide my glass over to her and slide hers over to me, plus I say, politely, "she ordered the wine," hoping that he/she gets the message for the next time he takes an order.


- RickBin389 - 11-10-1999

amshih - what you are dealing with is an individual bias as opposed to restaurant SOP. I can't imagine - in this day and age - any chromosomal directive being issued.

I would be willing to bet that the waiter/waitress that is attentive enough to notice will probably nail the remainding service points.

it's also funny to point out that all of you referred to a "waiter" -(except Nancy) there are plenty of polished & qualified waitresses out there that may or may not make the same mistake.

to answer your qustion, I would politely point out that the Lady made the selection and she will evaluate the wine.

[This message has been edited by RickBin389 (edited 11-10-99).]


- Thomas - 11-10-1999

Ricbin, I use the word waiter the way I use the word actor and the words flight attendant. No gender implied.


- Jerry D Mead - 11-10-1999

Ditto on waiter....waitperson is an awful word and it doesn't make sense to use waitress instead of waiter as it requires a couple of extra characters...and I'm way too busy to mess with waiter/waitress.

I'll give you the wine list gladly...and the first taste...but I won't play silly gender name games. I'm tired of it.

[This message has been edited by Wine Curmudgeon (edited 11-12-1999).]


- RickBin389 - 11-12-1999

I tried a rebuttle post yesterday....what happened to it?


- n144mann - 11-12-1999

Okay guys...since we are on the gender things here.....how many of you let a woman carry your packages for you??? I work at a retail shop, and our main focus is on service! First and foremost-take care of the customer! Now, I know a lot of our regulars, and they know me. I usually do not work at the register/counter, but when we are busy, I will at times be needed there. Now, I am a tall, slender woman....but one who is perfectly capable of carrying a case of wine. However, you would not believe the looks of pure horror I get when I offer to help some of these gentleman with their packages...even when they can not possibly take them all themselves. I have had more than one tell me that they would not feel right having a pretty blond carry their packages for them, but one of the male employees would be just fine. I don't pretend to mind all that much, [img]http://216.122.9.155/ubb2/wink.gif[/img], but I do find it interesting that they see the situation as uncomfortable.

Anyway....I just find these sexual biases, which go both ways, really interesting as they pertain to service issues......

One interesting observation I have made....the younger the man, the more likely he is to let me help him. Maybe these stuffy gender roles are on their way out!!

Nancy



[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 11-12-1999).]


- RickBin389 - 11-12-1999

That's agood question , Nancy. I don't think I would accept the help. Maybe it's my southern upbringing, maybe because I'm still fairly young and produce testosterone - I can't quite say..........

I would at least acknowledge the fact that you offered.


- Bucko - 11-12-1999

...Stuffy gender roles.......

Is politeness a stuffy gender role? If so, I'm proud to be stuffy.

Bucko


- n144mann - 11-12-1999

Now that is an interesting statement Bucko....why do you find it impolite for a man to accept help from a woman if the task is physical? Especially since it could be considered part of my job? I am sure you would not decline help with something that was not physical would you??

I certainly do not feel that it is impolite for a man to accept my help. In fact, I often enjoy the chance to help, it is a great way to keep in touch with a customer that I would not have had a chance to touch base with otherwise.

Men, please do not misunderstand...I am all for gentlemanly chivalry. Personally Rick...I LOVE that southern upbringing!! It was one of the things I very much enjoyed about southern men. BUT, at the same time, I certainly do not see anything wrong with giving a man a hand, nor his accepting my help, even when the task is a physical one. In my book, turn about is fair play, especially in the workplace.

As for testosterone Rick...here I thought that was why the men that are close to my age (also fairly young) "LET" me help them.....laugh I have had to fend off more than one, which IMO, "IS" very impolite on their part.

Nancy




[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 11-12-1999).]


- Bucko - 11-12-1999

I just feel that America goes overboard on everything that it does. The 90's seem to be the decade of political correctness. What has it done? It has people walking around the workplace on eggshells afraid to say or do ANYTHING because it might offend someone. It has stripped a lot of humor and spirit from the office, even the home. Everyone walks around with a discrimination chip on their shoulders. Fortunately, my receptionist and nurse are immune to this nonsense and we have fun at the office. I need to put a NO PC OBSERVED sign on the door.

I'm an old Texas farm boy who knows no gender when it comes to labor -- sis can lift those hay bales as well as me. I cook a mean meal and scrub a toilet with the best of them. But, I have had militant type females actually lambast me for holding open a door for them, for crying out loud. I'm sorry, but just because the rest of the world wants to go off of the deep end, I refuse to join the parade. Sorry for the soapbox, but this subject pushes my buttons.

Bucko


- Jerry D Mead - 11-13-1999

I'm old enough (and not in the best health) that I have learned to graciously accept the help of anyone willing to help.

But I'm one of those old-timers who remembers having a hard time accepting women wine reps picking up lunch and dinner tabs...even though I knew it was the protocol. I was new in the business...any business...and I had been raised to believe that gentlemen always pay for ladies.

I can remember my wife passing money under the table to me so I could pick up the check...guys felt shamed if their women paid...even if it was their wife and it was shared money. Maturity usually ends that kind of silly macho crap.

I got over it...glad to let women pay these days.


- RickBin389 - 11-13-1999

I like the way your mind works Nancy!

Before I was married...Hmmmm.....Well, I might let a nice leggy blonde help me to my car - NOT with a case of wine in her hands, but maybe to help retrieve my car keys ;-}

You can still walk a customer out and continue/create conversation without lugging a case of wine.

I can't think of one single successful man (that I know) who would allow a female to shlep wine to their car for them. That's not sexist to me , that's the way I was raised - My dad would knock the snot out of me for treating a woman, girl or my sister poorly.......


- n144mann - 11-13-1999

Well Rick....I have to admit, I really do not shlep too much wine. My boss, who is Greek, and VERY gentlemanly hates the idea, but I carry the smaller packages for men, sometimes I simply open the doors for them, and yes Rick....help them with their keys. [img]http://216.122.9.155/ubb2/wink.gif[/img] My boss at times complains that I should not be carrying anything, that I should let the flat stomached men do it, to which I replied...my stomach is flatter than most of theirs. He could not argue with that. Anyway, he does recognize that my customer skills are one of my strengths, and so if you have a leggy blonde that the customers like...you let her do as she wishes. [img]http://216.122.9.155/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]

As for your dad knocking the snot out of you for mistreating a woman....'MY' dad would knock the snot out of any man that would mistreat me...grin Actually, your saying that reminds me of this teenage couple I saw one afternoon when I was down south. I was walking by their car as they were getting out. All of a sudden the young guy starts saying frantically, "get back in!!" His girl friend did as she was told, and he then ran around and opened her door for her, explaining quickly to her that he had seen his mother over there, and she would kill him for not opening the door for his girl. [img]http://216.122.9.155/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]

Man..... it does make me miss the south, or at least southern men. [img]http://216.122.9.155/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]

Nancy




[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 11-13-1999).]


- Zinner - 11-15-1999

Well Nancy, if you really miss the south, you should come on down and visit it sometime.

The southern men are mostly still chivalrous.

And guys, when I go over to a friend's home for dinner (usually dragging a lot of wine along) and the men come running out to the car to carry all my stuff in, I let them. They can open the door for me too, if they like. Although if they really have their hands full, I will open it for them.
Courtesies are nice for all of us.

Nancy you might like to hear that the store in our town with the top wine sales has a woman wine consultant running things. I don't know if the guys will let her schlep wine out to the car, but they sure will buy it from her.

I'd have to agree though that some restaurants can be slow in recognizing women as wine knowledgeable. I find if I can start a little conversation with the sommelier, making some comments about the wine list and asking a few pertinent questions they 'get it' a lot faster. And when they do, usually they're very helpful.

Then there's the occasional one that makes your blood boil. At a 'hot' Napa Valley restaurant, I was served an absolutely flat glass of sparkling wine(Mumm Napa). Of course, I sent it back, but the waiter and the guy behind the bar had to have a big debate over it before they would send out a fresh glass and by then the course I had intended to drink the wine with was gone. Couldn't help but think that if I had been a guy, they would have taken my word for it.
Why should I have to tell them that I had been at the winery just that day tasting all the products in order to write a column about them? Or that the day before I was at a luncheon at the Ritz-Carlton in San Francisco sipping the French stuff, including old vintages, with some of Mumm's folks.

Yes, of course, I mentioned it to Mumm Napa, when I called them again for the story.
I should have complained to the restaurant management too. At the time I just thought that they had way too much competition for me to be bothered and I didn't go back. Oh well. Live and learn.

Fortunately most places I go do better than this.

[This message has been edited by Zinner (edited 11-14-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Zinner (edited 11-14-1999).]


- Thomas - 11-15-1999

Let me get myself in trouble here:

1. Chivalry is sexism, pure and simple. Not necessarily bad, just depends on perspective, but it is sexism.

2. Women who want respect for wine knowledge in a restaurant, and hate when the waiter goes directly to the man for the first taste, but also want men not to let them carry their own luggage, or do their job (which might be to carry cases of wine) seems to me as reverse chivalry. Again, not necessarily bad, depends on perspective.

I like it when we simply do nice things for one another, regardless of our gender. I have held doors open for both men and women, and I have let women do their job if it entails carrying something to my car, and that is what they want to do.

My perspective: equal treatment for equal treatment...

As for the waiter and wine service, I don't look at it in a gender frame of mind. Simply put: the waiter should serve the first taste to whomever ordered the wine.


- Zinner - 11-15-1999

That's the point, Foodie.
As I said--courtesies are nice for all of us. With my upbringing, it would be considered rude to become argumentative with someone who only wanted to help.

If a man holds the door for me, I smile and say thank you. No insult meant and none taken(keep opening those doors, Bucko). It's not about expecting someone to be on call to serve you. It's about being nice back when someone is nice to you(if another woman holds the door, I smile and say thanks too).

Now if I can help the guy, that's what I do. I'd carry his luggage if he needed help. Open the door. Pick up the package. It just makes life more pleasant to look out for each other.

But the restaurants are a thornier problem.

A woman writer friend and I were out with some wine reps in an Atlanta restaurant with a good wine list. We asked for a sherry and they brought something that definitely was not from Jerez. Does this happen to men too sometimes? Probably. But either it is happening to us more often or the men aren't speaking up in our presence. It is insulting when they think you won't know.

You have to challenge things like that.

[This message has been edited by Zinner (edited 11-15-1999).]