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+--- Thread: Why MEN?? (/thread-12711.html)
- n144mann - 05-26-1999
I was joking with Randy about wearing a short dress to get my retailers attention, and I got to thinking about the fact that the wine industry is mostly men, from the retailer to the winemakers to the tasters and reviewers. And Bucko, I don't think it is because GOD is male as you once proposed. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
This board is a perfect example of what I mean.... I think Anna and myself are the only two regulars that are female. Any ideas out there about why this is?? Lets face it, women always make it better! <grin>
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- amshih - 05-26-1999
Hey, fellow wine chick here. Just from my experience, for some reason, I see more women actually *drinking* wine than men. My local Wine Brats chapter is about 70% female. Yet, when I look at the Wine Enthusiast catalog, I see all sorts of manly accessories (golf stuff, cigar stuff, ties, etc.). They even put out a special catalog for Father's Day, but not Mother's Day!
The weird part is, I've encountered only one female "wine snob", but many male wine snobs. Could it be that women like to drink wine, while men like to talk about it more? Any other theories?
- n144mann - 05-26-1999
That is an interesting observation. I have run into some male wine snobs here also. I think that there are so many more of the male persuasion in the wine field that by odds we run into them more often. I have met plenty of snobby women in other fields, I wouldn't think that wine world would be any different.
Hey any men want to weigh in here?? Rick, Kevin and some of you other restaurant men, who drinks more wine in the restaurant?? Men or women?? I am talking frequency, not amount. My husband can out drink me any day of the week.
Foodie, who came into your tasting room more? Male or female??
- Bucko - 05-26-1999
This has been a subject of discussion on other wine boards also. It is hard to answer what seems to be a simple question. I know that my wife has an excellent palate, loves a multitude of wines, yet she could care less about going on line and talking about it. I think that guys like to play oneupmanship more than females. So when Billy Bob breaks out a Lynch Bages, Bubba has just GOT to go open a Latour. I think it is a testosterone thing....... }:>
Bucko
- n144mann - 05-26-1999
One of those sex linked things like the inability to ask for directions, the TV remote fetish, and the need for constant pampering when you only have the sniffles. I think I can buy into that one for part of the reason why the board is mostly male, but it doesn't really address the industry wide bias toward men.
Besides, I know a lot of VERY competitive women, who like nothing better than doing one better than someone else. Especially a MAN!! But I don't see many of these types of women on here or in the industry in general.
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- Randy Caparoso - 05-26-1999
I'm not sure about the point you're trying to bring out, Nancy. But here's what I know:
1. Women definitely make up a minority in the industry (production, distribution, retail, restaurants, journalism, etc.), but a slight majority amongst actual wine consumers.
2. The women that I've met in the industry, however, have been a shade more talented and aggressive than the majority of men -- probably because that's how they need to be to survive, I would surmise.
3. Men definitely can be silly when it comes to wine appreciation. The wine-upmanship, the secret signals, cigars, etc. Need I say more?
4. It's truly upsetting to see women who feel the need to ape the stupid things men do in the name of "belonging."
Whatever the case or reasons, we definitely could use a lot more women in the industry. Not all men are insufferable, and there would probably be less of that if there were more women keeping things aright. We could use a more civil, sensible and practical approach to doing business!
- Thomas - 05-26-1999
Nancy,
In my old tasting room we mainly served couples, but the men rarely made the buying decision; they did that only when they were with male friends, sans any women. I do not know why, except to guess that women in married couples appreciate wine more then men (talking about the general public here, not us wine people).
Bucko got it right. Men seem more competitive, in every thing we do, whether we know about the subject or not. Of course, Bucko and I are excluded.
One of my observations in both the tasting room, and having done scores of tastings for the trade, is that among the general populace women display a better palate than men, or should I say a more descerning palate. When I made wine I used my wife's palate as the final say before settling on a blend or a bottling schedule; same as everything else, isn't it?
Incidentally, there are a lot of fine female winemakers in the US, and there are a lot of fine female wine salespeople. Also, a fair number of wineries are owned by women, but we men still hold the majority; same as everything else, isn't it?
- n144mann - 05-27-1999
Not sure there was a point, just a general observation that men seem to hold such a majority in the field, and that the industry as Amshih pointed out, caters to men more than women. Bucko seemed to suggest that it was because women were not as competetive, didn't enjoy one-upmanship as much. I know a lot of very competetive women, but I must concede that they probably are that way, VERY aggressive, because they need to be to survive and get what they want in their fields.
Randy and Foodie, your observations are about what I expected. I thought too that women often have a more descerning palate. (true of the women I know anyway) As for men being silly, you unfortunately don't hold the corner market on that. I have seen more than one woman, very intelligent women, put on the dumb blond act for some man that 'seems' to know more about wine than her, even when I know for a fact that the oposite is true. Now THAT is silly!!! (I am sure you guys are more enlightened, but some guys seem to like that dumb blond thing.) I asked one of them later why she did that....she said she didn't want to seem disrespectful. (he was about 10 years her senior and she was the southern belle type) I said that I thought it was more disrespectful to be dishonest with him.
Foodie, the mention of couples brings to mind another observation about restaurants. When they bring the wine list, they ALWAYS give it to my husband. I know it is the traditional thing to do, after all he is paying the bill in most cases. But if it is the women that usually make the wine decision as you and Randy seem to think, shouldn't restaurants be allowing for that?? I mean, the days when the man ordered for the woman are long gone. We now get our own menu, why not our own wine list?? Or simply place the list on the table between us, or I don't see what is wrong with the waiter simply asking who would like to make the wine choice for the meal. I usually make it obvious that I am the one who made the wine choice,(if for no other reason to make the waiter aware of the fact that I am the one who will be making the initial judgement when the wine is brought to the table), more often than not, when they bring the wine to the table, it is my husband who gets handed the cork. I give a good tip to those who notice that I am the one making the wine decision and respond accordingly. Randy, you pride yourself on being part of an organization which is wine savvy in its list and service of the customers, how do you guys handle it?
Anyway, like I said, just observations, (and a few pet peeves).
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- Thomas - 05-27-1999
When the waiter brings the wine to my wife and me, one of us will ask the other, "would you like to taste?"
Rarely does the wine server ask the important question, "who will be tasting the wine tonight?" That question is the sign of a trained, and ineterested wait staff.
- n144mann - 05-27-1999
<<the sign of a trained and interested wait staff>>
That would explain why I don't see it here.
You and your wife have a polite way to handle it. My husband usually just takes it, then hands it to me, asking if it is alright. Sometimes the waiter will apologize, and sometimes I think they don't even notice.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-28-1999
Nancy, you know darned well that sexism is still a powerful force in all facets of today's society. It will take years to go away.
We run a "contemporary" outfit, and so our people are trained to be p.c. about placing the wine list somewhere between male/female couples rather than directly to the man. And of course, it doesn't take a genius to know that if the woman orders the wine, they'll also be tasting it. But there are also a couple of obvious exceptions:
1. When we know for sure (from previous experience, or through reservations, who is checking in with the hostess, etc.) that a "man" is in charge. By the same token, of course, this role could be played by a woman.
2. When a man is obviously acting the "aggressor," directing traffic, dishing out tips, and obviously leading the party, it just stands to reason that he'll get the wine list. Not to do so could possibly result in one mad hombre, which no right-thinking hostess, server, or manager would want. This is not sexism; because, again, that role could very well be taken up by a woman (as I said, it doesn't take a genius to figure out when SHE better get the list!).
And of course, when in doubt, it doesn't hurt for any of us to ask -- who gets the list, and who does the tasting. Sometimes when it's a touchy subject amongst the couple themselves (which is often the case), we just rectify the situation by, say, pouring wine into both glasses and saying, "How about if you both taste it and see if you like it!"
But remember, we truly live in a funny time. While it is incorrect to patronize women and defer to men, it is still very much correct to go ladies first and err ever so slightly on the side that the male will probably be ordering the wine, paying the bill, etc. It's a business, after all, and the smart way to succeed in it is simply to play the percentages and current social mores.
- n144mann - 05-28-1999
Randy, I am not debating sexism here. Just so you know, I am a VERY traditional person, in a VERY traditional marriage, esp by todays standards. I admit, I enjoy having doors opened for me, I enjoy being served first, and I enjoy a man giving his seat for me. (well, the last makes me feel a little guilty, I usually say no to that one) I certainly don't EXPECT these things from every man I meet, but unlike some feminists, I am certainly not offended by the gesture. I don't think sexism plays a role in it, I think it is a service issue and an intuitive staff should be able to handle it. I will give you a typical night in the Grossmann dining out experience and see if you agree.
When the decision is made to go out, I will make the reservation, but in my husbands name. (on a rare occasion, if he wants to surprise me, he will make the reservation or have his secretary do it) He will be the one to make initial contact with the hostess when we arrive and will take the lead directing the party. When we are seated and have made initial contact with our waiter, my husband taking charge in all of this, and are asked if we would like wine with our meal/would you like to see our wine list, my husband will say," Nancy would YOU like to see the list??" or more often, "Yes, I am sure my wife would like to see the wine list." At this point I take charge and add "Yes I would like to see the list" At this point, I think most waiters should be able to see that he has left the decision up to me, and I should be given the wine list, and again be given the wine to taste when it is brought to the table. IF the waiter is still in doubt, I don't have a problem with what you suggested, asking if both would like to taste. Like you said, it doesn't take a genius!! The rest of the meal is back in my husbands hands, he makes any requests for the table, unless it is a second bottle of wine, and he takes charge of paying the bill. All it takes, as foodie pointed out, is a staff that has been trained to be attentive and listen and react to the dynamics of the table as opposed to simply going through the same motions regardless of who they are serving. When waiters show me that they are doing this, I (suggest to my husband that we) reward them for their excellent service.
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- Thomas - 05-28-1999
Nancy,
My wife gets offended if and when any assumptions are made about who is in charge -- she or me. She never, ever, allows me to order for her, and she wouldn't think of ordering for me.
To get around whose name goes on the reservation we always use the name Fox -- just plain Fox, which of course is not our name.
I think Randy and I agree on this one. His seems to be the smart restaurateur's approach to the shifting winds of dining out code.
- n144mann - 05-28-1999
okay okay, I will give this one to you guys, since it is not an earth shattering point for me either way, just a pet peeve. ( I am one of those non-confrontational wine drinkers which is why I always suck at these debates...<grin> ) I can see the arguement that you are making has some validity. I WILL continue to give a better tip to those who are attentive enough to know who is doing what tho, because I have on occasion seen waiters who are wonderful at this. Being able to read the situation, and make the proper decisions is, after all, what makes any good service provider stand out above the rest.
As for getting offended by sexism, it takes a pretty blatant offense to make me mad. I must admit to being a perfectionist, however, which is why little things like this wine service "mistake" get under my skin. As for whose name goes on the reservation and things like that, it doesn't really make any difference to me, or him. It is just the way we have always done it.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-28-1999
Nancy, I truly like your role. You get to pick the wine but NOT pay the bill. As you would imagine, since I'm in the business, I too often get that privilege (I love it when they say, "Let Randy choose the wine!).
With my wife, unfortunately, I get stuck with all the jobs.
But really, if a server or manager knows that you have chosen the wine, and still gives it to your husband to taste... well, that's inexcusable. The only time I ever pour wine for both people to taste is when neither one wants to do it, or when I sense that this is a situation where a group decision would probably be best.
- n144mann - 05-28-1999
Yes, I am lucky, he treats me well and I enjoy it! Now if I could just get him to help with the dishes at home..... [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Nancy
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- Thomas - 05-29-1999
Dishes? Did someone say dishes? I have to go...
In my home, I cook dinner, but I definitely DO NOT do dishes -- at least not always.
- n144mann - 05-29-1999
FOODIE, YOU COOK?? YOU ARE HIRED!!!! My hubbie does not cook, clean or do dishes. He kinda figures that he earns the money and I do the rest. When I worked out of the home full time, he did a lot around the house, including his own laundry,(didn't let him touch mine [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] )but now that I am home, it has all become my job. I don't mind much, except I hate doing the dishes, so I decided that is what children are for. It is now their job. The hubbie does the lawn chores, and was supposed to do the pool, which he promptly turned green. I think on purpose. He knew I would never be able to live with that, so now that is my job too. I think I deserve to always choose the wine don't you??? [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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- Jerry D Mead - 05-30-1999
a COUPLE OF QUICK NOTES COMING IN LATE HERE.
It's my experience that untrained women are almost always better tasters than untrained men. Women have a lifetime of paying attention to smells...cosmetics, foods etc...while guys were mostly busy smelling like wet puppies.
Trained men and women seem to be about equal.
Women buy 70% of the wine at retail...they buy the wines to cook with and to drink with pasta for dinner tonight.
The guys are the damned fools who pay six prices to get the current Napa wine monster from the curremtly fashionable winemaking consultant.
For women wine is a beverage.
For guys it is often a trophy...they buy it, they cellar it, they brag about it...but rarely drink it.
The above is all the broadest of generalizations
Curmy
- Randy Caparoso - 05-30-1999
Even if broad, in essence -- so very true!