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- stevebody - 12-30-2004
Guys:
I posted this on winespectator and was a little surprised at the response (not as derisive as I had expected). I thought I'd post it here and get your responses. Please note: I ain't selling a philosophy here. Anyone who does any of these things won't hear a word of criticism from me. Just some loose sand from under my saddle...
There are times when I post here and say I hope I'm not starting something but this isn't one of those. I am trying to start something and I accept, in advance, whatever criticism comes my way, including the inevitable, "...merely demonstrating your appalling ignorance of what wine is all about..." Go ahead and get that one out of the way quickly, okay?
Here it is:
I get more and more tired, with every passing year, with A),the knee-jerk devotion paid to the French, especially Bordeaux and Burgundy, (as in a recent post that posited, "everyone always ends up with Burgundy"), B) the whole philosophical enchilada of cellaring "fine" wines, C) the endless discussion of terroir as the primary virtue of a great wine, and D) the whole idea that wine tastes are, in ANY way, universal and plainly linear.
In a startling reversal of form, I'll be brief:
- To repeat an idea I posted elsewhere, while the French make some of the world's great wines, the fact is that 99% of us will NEVER taste the true classics and so they will forever remain an intellectual exercise for us. We may taste a 100 point wine if we're very lucky (and flush) but only rarely. The vast majority of what we'll drink from the French will be, at best, the high under-tier of their wines which, I contend, have no objective superiority over the equivalent wines from anywhere else. I think the French winemakers figured out, a hundred years ago, that fostering the myth that the only country that really "gets" fine wine is France equals good business and they've created a religion founded on the idea. I believe that, in a blind tasting, most of us would as likely choose an Italian, CA, WA, or even an Aussie wine as subjectively "better" than French and that seeing the label often sways us toward an elevated opinion of that wine. I've proven this to my own satisfaction with ringers slipped into blind tastings on five occasions, now.
-It's bugged me for some time that I'm expected to sell wine to normally-intelligent people (read "non wine weenies") by telling them that it'll be great in five years, ten years, whatever. They want to spend their disposable income on "fine" wines but simply cannot grasp that, as one Microsoft millionaire put it, "My product has to be ready to go out of the box. Why doesn't this guy's?" I always answer that there are a ton of wines around that don't require cellaring but they read the same magazines we all do. A fishing boat owner from Alaska asked me, "If this wine is going to be so f___ing great in ten years, why doesn't the winery wait ten years and then sell it? I'm supposed to schlep this guy's wine around for a decade while he spends my money now?" I used to just chuckle and move on but I'm beginning to see it. I know a lot of us enjoy cellaring but why am I investing so much faith - and Bucks - in what MAY turn out to be great but may turn out to be vinegar? I AM doing this guy's job for him and that is the objective fact. In no other mass commodity do we EXPECT to handle a technical production aspect of the product AND assume 100% of the financial risk. If our carefully-cellared bottle of Chateau Palmer turns out to be insipid, we're not getting a refund.
-Terroir, as I understand it, is one aspect of the character of a wine, along with tannins, fruit, alcohol, etc. By some tastes, terroir becomes the principal yardstick and tastes are individual. But the worship of terroir has become nearly universal among knowledgeable wine lovers and I think, once again, it goes back to Bordeaux and Burgundy. The entire French system of classification revolves around terroir, as expressed in the pride of place displayed on every label. I'm going to be as crass about it as I can possibly be: Why am I supposed to care about what some French guy's backyard tastes like? Terroir isn't exactly a mystery. If you can't taste a Napa wine and Sonoma wine and tell the differences, you just haven't paid attention. But that doesn't say that either is superior. Italian wines express terroir every bit as distinctly as French but they don't make that the raison d'etre for the wine. As Ricardo Cotarella once said to me, when I asked about the sources of his grapes in his Falesco Est!Est!Est!, "Did you like the wine?" "Oh, very much," I replied. "Then what do you care?" he smiled. I fail to see why a wine can express minimal or no terroir and not be considered "great".
Finally, the whole notion of the inevitable arc of someone's wine evolution drives me up the wall. I was told by my early chef guru that my own cooking would inevitably change and what I thought of as great back then would be less great in twenty years. He was right...to a point. Back then, I thought jambalaya was the cat's ass and I've veered into African, Morrocan, Turkish, Ethiopian, Provencal, German, every region of Italy, Tex-Mex, Chinese, and Thai food and have enjoyed each one but jambalaya is still the cat's ass. A plain tuna sandwich is still great. Bananas still taste perfect. We move on but we come back. My wine mentor said the same, eleven years ago. "Oh, you'll outgrow those big CA Zins and Gigondas and Aussies," he chuckled. I have learned to love a lot of stuff outside of that, delicate wines as well as big ones, but I still love a good Zin, Domaine les Palleiers, and Peter Lehmann Stonewell. I think people "end up" in one place because they think they're supposed to. They read forums and read that we "all end up in Burgundy" and go do just that. Everybody wants to think of themselves as learned and experienced, of course. Me, too. But, as a chef, I had to actively work at using my palate, every single day, and it's a cornerstone idea of the job that you MUST know flavors. I know an awful lot of chefs who also love wine and very few fall into the "freak" category about any particular region. I'm not saying my palate's anyone's ideal. In fact, I don't even accept the idea that I'm any kind of wine connoiseur. I think of myself, especially when selling wine, as a regular guy who loves wine. I also love baseball, football, movies, basketball, books, and a thousand other things. I've actually had customers ask how I can be a Mariners fan and still be a wine geek. (Last season, I explained that drinking wine helped get through the M's games) If we're all truly lovers of wine, the practice of setting aside that territory of "serious" wine connoiseur for only those who think one way about the experience builds a wall between us and potential wine people.
Well, so much for being brief. One day, maybe...
- winoweenie - 12-30-2004
Gracious sakes there SB if that be brief I'd hate to read your thesis. I agree with much of what you say, but cellaring good,fine, great wines to allow them to improve and reach their potential makes for added pleasure. Saying that yopu are doing the vineyard owners work for him is shoprt-sighted. Buying wines on futures allows you to get the product you want, save money on the eventual release price, and realize the appreciation after maturity. Buying 82 1st growths at 39 a bottle and seeing them sell above 500 10 years later doesn't seem like too bad a deal. Paying 200 per for the 2000
1sts and seeing them priced above 400 already doesn't strike me as the owners using our money and us doing their cellaring for them. I like good bottles with some whiskers, good bottles that need drinking by Tuesday, or for that matter, good wines of all descriptions as long as they're red. Just my .02 coppers. WW
- Innkeeper - 12-30-2004
I too agree with much of your rant. Will come back when a little more sober, and digest it all.
- Zinner - 12-31-2004
Well, I remember being at a tasting once and we had in front of us premium Cabernets from all over. Think we were sipping Dalle Valle when, just being polite and making conversation, I asked the guy next to me what he thought. He replied, "I don't know what to think...usually all I drink is old Bordeaux." In the crowd I was in, he wasn't trying to be pretentious--I totally believed he was just telling the truth.
However, I'm sure the guy never imagined that I actually felt sorry for him because his palate seemed so limited. When I meet up with one of these characters, I want to say, "Do you eat only caviar three times a day? Do you ever just eat a hot dog?"
I find wines that I like in all the price categories, from all sorts of places. Geez, I've had wine from Thailand that I enjoyed very much and it didn't displease me that it was decidedly different from any other wine I'd ever had. It was delicious with the food.
And that's what I look for really...something that enhances my enjoyment of the dish or the occasion. If it's not fun, then what is it for?
Sometimes it's fun for me to know about the terrior(I have my geekish moments) but I think where people quit having fun sometimes is when they let it deteriorate into one-upsmanship. Then it's like any other commodity such as having to have a Rolex or a BMW or a Hummer because you want others to know you've arrived. And of course, those folks often serve their trophy wine to friends who'd really rather have white Zin.
I don't get angry because the wineries don't age the wine for me. Many have accountants or banks breathing down their necks and can't afford to cellar it.
And I agree with WW about the pricing. You can buy aged wines from shops that specialize in such like but you'll spend a bundle. Also that's another matter where you can express your personal taste. Some people like young wines and some like old.
For me, it's all about the exploration. I'm glad there's so much out there, that it's endlessly entertaining and I'm always learning something new.
- wineguruchgo - 12-31-2004
I agree with much of what you say, yet there are things that I look for in a wine that affirm the past few years that I have spent trying to condition my palate. Tasting the grass in a NZ Sauvignon Blanc or the minerality in a French Chablis is equivalent to a kid saying "Look Mom ~ no hands!" as they are riding their bike.
As for cellaring - well I look at that like the birth of a baby. I know that when the time comes I will, hopefully, enjoy a beautiful bottle of wine. Sure the gestation period may be 10+ years, but hey! It's the life we choose to lead as corkdorks.
As for our even taking the time to understand and speak of it intelligently - I agree with the person who commented on wine being our passion. I feel fortunate that in my lifetime I have actually found something I can be truly interested in and passionate about. I talk to family and friends about it and I see their eyes glaze over as if I'm talking about molecular structure. I don't get it. But it's ok, because they don't either!
- Innkeeper - 12-31-2004
French Wine: There is still a lot of French Wine worth persuing. South and Southwestern France are producing excellent wine at good prices. So is Alsace, though the price is creeping up quickly. Southern Burgundy is doing fine, particularly Cru Beaujolais and Maconnais Whites. This past year, we have enjoyed several of the 2000 Cru Bourgeois Bordeaux at or near their peak, but don't do that in everyday vintages.
Aging: We age three or four cases of wine for periods of three to fifteen years from vintage. Most of these are wines are from either Tobin James and Easton/Terre Rouge that come in annual and semi-annual shipments. Usually half to two thirds of the these shipments need age. We also age Californian and Australian Petite Sirah/Druiff, some Bordeaux (Second or below and second bottlings), a little Upper Rhone, a few Brunellos and even a few Loire Whites. Having said this, I freely admit that some people don't like aged out wines. We do. The problem with aging, once you have the proper facilities, is that there is less and less being produced that is worth laying down these days.
Terroir: Agree that this over hyped. I do think it is an element of wine as you allow. I usually refer to it as "dirt" or "earth."
All this "wisdom" is coming from someone who pays less tha $20 for 99% of his wines, and probably half of that at or around $10.
- tandkvd - 12-31-2004
D@%$ SB, looks like you didn't cause the raucous you were trying to. Looks like most around here agree wiyh most of what you said, except for the cellering part.
I have found that there are far too many good wines < $15.00 that I have time to try now, than to worry about all that snobbery part of the wine experiance. I have learned to enjoy even a good white wine with the right food. But wine is just that, it is a part of a great dinning experiance. Like foodie has said "Wine is food". And like food there are not many wines I do not like or at liest will try.
As far as cellering. I do see the pros of it. It is sort of like playing the stock market. Some time you hit on a great deal and some times you loose your shirt. The fact is with some good knowledge you increase your odds of a good deal at the end. Although I don't have the facility or the recources to attempt cellering now. Especialy with my kids college starring me in the face. But hopefully after that I may be able to dabble in it.
Just my .02
BTW, looks like your biggest problem is pulling for the Mariners & Seahawks. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
- dananne - 12-31-2004
Jumping in on the cellaring issue, that's one of the things I like about many Spanish producers, particularly in Rioja, where they release aged wines that are ready to go. Of course, one may still choose to sit on, say, a '94 Gran Reserva, but you have not had to store it while it's taken up valuable space in your cellar for the past 10 years.
Sometimes it's hard to bridge that "gap" in my cellar between bottles that need aging (for example, CdP from '98 - '00, etc.) and the "everyday drinkers" that you don't need to feel guilty popping just because it's Tuesday night and your significant other isn't drinking.
On terroir -- I don't look for it or really care when I'm popping a Three Thieves jug wine or Big House Red, but it's something I certainly like to see if I pop, say, an aged Beaucastel or even a good Willamette Pinot. That having been said, I think a wine can taste great to me without seeing a whole lot of terroir. A Numanthia doesn't express the essence of Toro the same way a Murrieta does Rioja, but I still find a lot to like in both.
- californiagirl - 12-31-2004
I may be the worst to answer this, as I am not as experienced as most here. But maybe a newbie opinion may help.
I agree with alot that dananne said.
As far as terrior- it only matters to me depending on what I'm buying. I'm not one to purchase Bordeaux- cost wise at least. Never had it to know of the taste. I know that I don't like earthiness in pinots- that kind of raw dirt, mushroom taste. But I can now notice the difference b/w a Napa cab and a Sonoma cab. So I guess that's a start. But I certainly don't even look for it from a bottle of Cline Zin.
My cellar's holding is small- I think I can have about 96 bottles. But that's not to say I don't purchase fine wines to cellar either. I look forward to the change that time brings to wine. I'll even try the 3 bottle rule when costs allow it. One bottle now, one in 3 yrs, one in 5 yrs. I have some that need the long haul- Ridge Montebello, JP Insignia, Jones Family Cab, Lewelling, etc. I try to keep those down to a 1/5 maximum. Then I have the 3-5 yr ones. (At least what I plan to hold for) Grgich Zins, Scherrer Zins and Cabs, Novy, Siduri, Loring, etc. Those are about 2/5. My whites and desserts are 1/5- that leaves about 1/5 EMPTY. I have that selection b/c I want to - not b/c I feel that I have to do the winemakers job to age the wine. I buy futures to save money, so I can afford wines I want, but whose retail are too $$. I am no where near ignorant when it comes to wine, thanks to KC. But I still am no where near where I want to be with knowledge of wine either. I do my best. It's more than just a hobby to me. I am passionate about wine. I am constantly seeking out places to learn more information. My family and friends actually call me to get wine advice, believe it or not. And if I can't answer their question, I seek out the answer. (Then there is always the "not more wine" comments from the UPS man and my hubby when the doorbell rings.)
And yes, there are and will always be people that aren't "wine geeks"- and they have no intention of ever becoming one. When the need arises, they want to be able to go to whatever store they choose and buy a bottle of wine- ready to drink. And if they're there to impress, they're gonna want the best of the best- so they do a small amount of research, and seek out the Wine Spectator 100 best list. And no, they're not going to understand that the wine they selected is either not available, or needs to rest for 10 yrs. That scenario is never going to change. We do not live in a country where wine is a staple of life from the time you are an infant and up. Most of our children are ignorant to wine- the drinking age is 21 in my state. Unless of course they have parents like us- who introduce them to wine and teach them appreciation. (I allow my children to have a sip of my wine if they want it- but no more. My 3 yr old loves wine and port- my 9 yr old only likes port. And they know that's the limit b/c wine is a grown up drink.) But I think that's a good place to start.
[This message has been edited by californiagirl (edited 12-31-2004).]
- Kcwhippet - 12-31-2004
That's my girl!!
- hotwine - 12-31-2004
You've done well, KC. My daughter has no appreciation of wine. Brilliant, gorgeous, but couldn't care less about the juice. I really screwed up her up-bringing.
- winoweenie - 01-01-2005
Probably had her senses dulled inhaling too much of the Oak smoke. WW [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
- hotwine - 01-01-2005
Tou may be right, WW. But the steady stream of smoke off the pit sure didn't hurt her appetite for BEEF.... she loves the stuff.
- Thomas - 01-03-2005
Don't have time to read the whole rant, but I get the gist of it.
I agree with most but not all.
Suffice to say, however, it seems, Stevebody, you are taking the subject even more seriously than I do. Back off and let the world live its way--you live yours.
(Incidentally, you (Steve) are the second person to recently mention to me as having had a wine mentor. Don't take it personal, but I find the concept of having to be mentored in taste appreciation rather amusing. Now, a wine educator is a whole 'nother story, and maybe that is what you meant--I hope.)
CG is dead right when she refers to the main problem in this country: it is not a wine culture, and based on what I see going on out there, it likely won't become one anytime soon. I actaully expect Prohibition to return!
- wondersofwine - 01-03-2005
I am a Burgundy fan (both red and white Burgundies though I may be harder to please with the whites). Pinot Noir and Riesling are my favorite varietals although I also enjoy Syrah/Shiraz, Sauvignon Blanc, Gewurtraminer, Cabernet Sauvignon and blends, Zinfandel, Sangiovese, Corvina, Scheurebe, etc. I think terroir is more important to me with Burgundies and Bordeaux and Riesling than with other varietals. With Zinfandel I prefer "old vines." (And that is true to some extent with red Burgundies as well). I like some Sonoma Zinfandels because they come from vineyards that survived Prohibition and go back many decades. But in Bordeaux, if I want a wine that is approachable, even pleasurable, without a decade or more of cellaring, I may look for a St. Emilion rather than a Pauillac, and that has to do with both grapes and terroir. The Merlot in St. Emilion wines softens them for earlier drinking. In Burgundy I have a partiality to Morey-St. Denis, Nuits-St-Georges and Volnay--all of which express different terroir. (On the less expensive side I can enjoy Beaune wines, Santenay, Beaujolais Cru, etc.). In Germany my favorite region is Mosel-Saar-Ruwer (where slatey steep vineyards come into play) and the Rheingau. There are some exceptional producers in Pfalz, Rheinhessen and the Nahe regions, but overall I'm not as drawn to those wines as to the M-S-R and Rheingau. In Germany the terroir doesn't always dictate the cost of the wine as it tends to do in France. You can find inexpensive Kabinett and Spatlese wines from the Mosel or the Rheingau and expensive Auslese wines from the Pfalz, etc.
I agree with Stevebody about not everyone is going to care about understanding and appreciating wine on a higher level. I did a winetasting fundraiser at my church in October and while it was fun and successful, several of the participants would have been happier sipping on beer or "sweet tea." Four of the more popular wines served were a Marsannay Rose', a Chinon Rose', a Charles Wiffen Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand (about $10-$13) and Wynn's Coonawarra Estate Shiraz (an inexpensive Australian red). I like all four of these wines or I wouldn't have served them, but prefered the Sauvignon Blanc from the Loire, and the Pinot Noirs (California, Oregon and a Burgundy 1er Cru).
I started out with Riesling (and in a sense did end up with Burgundy), but I still love a good Riesling and have enjoyed many other varietals along the way (and hope to experience many more).
- Bucko - 01-03-2005
Sorry, too long of a rant. WW and I go to sleep if the rant is more than a couple of paragraphs ... [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
- stevebody - 01-05-2005
Thanks, guys! Exactly what I had hoped for: reasoned discussion and diverse viewpoints.
A couple of things:
Tandkvd: Your last statement was quite painfully accurate. Sitting here looking at Saturday...I don't know if the Seahawks will win but they can. You just never know which version of the team's going to show up. As for the M's, I LOVE what they've done this off-season. Beltre @ 3rd, Pokey @ Short, Boone @ 2nd, Sexson @ 1st...I'll take that every day. We'll see...
Foodie:
Yeah, wine educator is more accurate. In particular, I guess, he'd have been a RETAIL wine educator, since I was mainly learning the business of buying and selling, POS and promotion from him, with some expanded wine appreciation along the way. I'm waaay too flippin' opinionated to ever accomodate an actual "mentor", I think.
WoW:
Thanks for the terrior as buying guide thing re: Bordeaux. That, I think, is the most valuable thing about the discussion of terroir; not so much the fine distinctions of limestone/mushrooms/clay dirt in one bottle versus another but the gross stylistic differences that are - to a degree - dictated by the character of the land. I know terroir exists, of course. A good friend of mine apprenticed at Heyl in Germany and told the story of their one large, square plot of land that was quartered by two intersecting fences. I tried three of the wines and each quadrant was RADICALLY different. That mystery at the heart of wine is one of its most powerful lures, to me.
I cellar some wines, too. When my customers ask, I own up to that. I hold Amarones until the bottles look like dust bunnies. I understand its allure and the potential rewards, even if I think the value of it is overstated. I find a greater joy in finding fabulous $8-$20 bottles that are ready any time. I just have a tough time refuting an argument that says that we're not doing the winemaker's job. I hadn't thought of the Spanish example but, yeah!, those well-aged new reservas are, I think, great values and far more consumer-friendly.
Thanks again for the ideas!
- TheEngineer - 01-06-2005
D-mn, hate being late to the party...but being such a newbie at this, I've not nothing to add on the wine side that has not been much better stated than what everyone else has already stated above.
There is only one area that you talked about that has not been completed addressed in the string and that is the notion of going back to the wines that you started out loving. You noted that people have told you that you would outgrow them and you noted that you have expanded and then gone back to them.
On this item, I think that this notion approaches how people think about "soul food". It is food that they are familiar with and feel comfortable going back to. It's almost like a bit or going back to your roots. I think that this may be a cyclical thing and then you many go back. I've not been drinking/educationing/learning long enough to have the opportunity to go back yet, though I think I will at some point. Nothing wrong with a great fried chicken even after years of wonderful foods from around the world.